[MD] irony and socrates

[MarshaV]

Bo,

I like to use unpatterned experience (dynamic) and patterned experience
(static) because it most closely reflects my experience.  Right now it is
important that I frame Quality such to link it to my actual experience.  I
could never be satisfied with an intellectual understanding: I much prefer
first-hand experience. 

I believe the fourth level contains the ghost of the self as the entity
acting upon the symbols.  It is another case of illusion to think that that
ghost of a self does not have influence. And that ghost of a self also
represents the dualistic self/object.  I have never been tempted to think of
the social level as exclusively the subjective and the intellectual level as
exclusively the objective.  Maybe that is because I am more influenced by
Buddhism than Western philosophy.  And I think the MoQ is as much about
bringing together Eastern wisdom and Western knowledge.  

I do not understand your last paragraph which probably is why I have never
made much sense of you SOL explanation.  I still think there are points
where we can be allies.  I do believe the Intellectual Level rests on the
_belief_ that Reality is made of an independent self and independent
objects. And I do agree with you that there should be a Quality Level
because the MoQ presents a world-view that is totally different than the
subject/object world-view.  And I like the idea of the Quality level clearly
stating the nature of static patterns of value: ever-changing, interrelated,
interconnected, relative and conceptually constructed.  

Thanks Bo for making our difference clearer. 


Marsha
 
 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of
skutvik at online.no
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:06 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] irony and socrates

For Marsha 

13 Oct. u wrote: 

> We are intellectualizing, and therefore objectification and
> manipulation part of the process.  

Bo:
Intelligence emerged with neural complexity and  "exploded" with the 
humans and has been used by all levels. We "intellectualize" when 
intelligence is used in the  4th level's service and "socialize" when its 
used in the 3rd.  and "biologize" ... etc.    

> I believe the MoQ is an intellectual static pattern of value, and
> chocked full of objectified symbols.   

Bo:
Intellect is MOQ's 4th. level and its static value is (in this case) the 
"symbol/whats symbolized" dualism. "Objectified symbols" is an 
oxymoron if you apply intellect's "symbol/what's symbolized" dualism 
where symbols are subjective by default.  

> In my investigation, the Quality presented in the MoQ is unpatterned
> experience and patterned experience.  Patterned experience (sq or
> static patterns of value) is conceptually constructed, ever-changing,
> relative and interrelated. Unpatterned experience (DQ) is indivisible,
> undefinable and unknowable. Without expanding on my definition, is
> there something you do not agree with? 


Bo:
Without expanding there is nothing I agree with.

Expanding: The MOQ postulates a dynamic and static aspect to 
Quality. We all know what "dynamic" means, no use heaping on more 
adjectives. The Static is what has sedimented as the known level 
hierarchy the first of which is the universe itself and that's not a 
concept (it is, but language is our "vehicle" and "dynamic" is also a 
concept if you start down that trail). DQ/SQ has no counterpart in the 
Dynamic/Concept, that's where Pirsig deviated from Phaedrus.

Bodvar














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