[MD] Three Hot Stoves

[Dan Glover]

Hello everyone

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:31 PM, 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi John, Dan,
>
> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Dan Glover <daneglover at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You're framing this intellectually and logically but you're missing
>> the Dynamic issues that RMP is attempting to bring to light with the
>> hot stove analogy.
>>
>> All experience begins Dynamically... every moment. It is only later
>> that we conceptualize it into meaningful experience. Granted, it
>> happens so fast that we normally fail to even notice it happening. I
>> think zen practice may help bring this Dynamic experience more into
>> focus but I hesitate to say so on account of muddying the waters.
>>
>>>John:
>>> Without conceptualization, there can be no experience.  The very essence of
>>> experience is a realization of a something which requires a concept of some
>>> kind.
>>
>> Dan:
>> Disagree. Without conceptualization there is no intellectual
>> experience but there can be experience before the intellectualization.
>> That's what the hot stove analogy is all about!
>>
> [Mark]
> I would still argue that the process of intellectualization is as
> dynamic as it gets.  One cannot consider the act of
> intellectualization to be anything other than the dynamic aspect of
> Quality.  If we want to separate what intellectualization is, from
> other parts of awareness we find that there is no boundary.  It is all
> awareness.  It would seem that some may distinguish the parts that go
> into a Martini, from the shaking (or stirring) or the final martini as
> being something different, but is it?  This sense of a separate
> compartment certainly glorifies the intellect as some divine thing,
> but does not stand.  Intellects get together and create other things,
> these intellects at work are also a form of dynamic quality.

Dan:

>From LILA:

"Dynamic Quality is the pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality, the
source of all things, completely simple and always new."

Dan comments:

Please note that Robert Pirsig says that Dynamic Quality is
"pre-intellectual", not intellectual. It is simple and always new
(just in case John is reading).


>Mark:
> One could say that the electricity going into a TV is somehow more
> real than the picture coming out, but again I do not see the boundary
> there.  We cannot look back at experience, the act of looking back is
> experience in itself.  It would seem that there is a false boundary
> between dynamic quality and the intellect.  Zen would deny such a
> boundary.  The intellect in operation is part and parcel of DQ.  We
> divide it up into SQ for the purposes of communication and societal
> needs, but of course that division is artificial and used primarily
> for imparting awareness, and cohesiveness.
>
> I'm not sure who I am agreeing with here, perhaps I have once again
> gone off on an irrelevant tangent.  If so, my apologies.

Dan:

Yes I would agree it is irrelevant in that this has nothing to do with the MOQ.

Dan