[MD] The social and intellectual strongholds.

[X Acto]

Bodvar

2 Mar.wrote:

Bodvar before:

> "The Giant" part in LILA - as an example of the social vs biology
> "code" never stuck with me. As with the "map projection" example
> Pirsig once found it mighty good, and could not resist it even if it
> does the MOQ no good. New York - like the USA and every Western
> community - is an intellect-controlled one where the laws and their
> enforcement are subject to strict intellectual limitations. The crown
> example of social value freely spending biological members is Islam
> and its demand on its devotees to sacrifice themselves in the fight
> against "western values". The fact that they do so voluntarily does
> not mean anything else that the Muslims' social component totally
> overrules their biological as our intellectual overrides the social.  

Ron:
> Lets us be clear, Islam fights "western values" in other words western
> intellectual values, (see Bo inadvertantly affirms the orthodox view)
> precisely because western intellectual patterns undermine social
> patterns of value. 

Bodvar:
Ron are you this dense? The orthodox interpretation of intellect has 
moved from "mind" or "intelligence" to "manipulation of symbols ..." 
and how the hell can this be a provocation to the Muslim culture? They 
are as intelligent and manipulate as many symbols as Western people.  
No, It is the S/O ("objective-over-subjective") intellect that denigrates 
religion by making it superstitious nonsense, and in a thousand ways 
undermines social value by relegating it to its subjective realm.   

Ron:
Again you affirm the orthodox view.


> They see it as endorsing a biological threat not an intellectual one. 

Bodvar:
Yes, that's exactly  my point, by undermining social value intellect 
invites biological inroads from below. 

Ron:

> SOL sees social values as subjective, superflous and
> meaningless and asserts biological freedom over social values.  

Bodvar:
For the umpteenth time "the SOL" is just an acronym for the 
interpretation that says that the intellectual level is the S/O distinction, 
but this is MOQ's view of intellect.

Ron:
which level is MoQ viewing this from?

Bodvar:
 Intellect itself knows no Quality 
context's so from its  internal view (i.e. SOM)  social value is as you 
say: subjective, superfluous, meaninglesss ..etc. because it is JUST IN 
PEOPLE'S MINDS 

Ron:
So how does value enter into the SOL interpretation? you imply an external view,
 but from where? there are only four levels of static definable quality and MoQ
which you state is reality. If reality is indefinable, one can't really say anything about 
MoQ, anything that is said is static pattern and s/o.

> Per Pirsig, Islam is more moral than SOL. Islam dominates biological
> patterns where SOL sets them free.

Bodvar:
This contains a grain of truth. Pirsig DOES condemn intellect in the 
"campus section" in LILA where he says that intellect has joined forces 
with biology to suppress social value and done this so well that it has 
created a "social nightmare" (I guess it's a more general criticism of 
USA in the sixties when intellectual lenient attitude to crime created a 
feeling of insecurity) But he does in no way put social value (least not 
the Islam pattern) above intellect, his intention is that the MOQ will 
"control" intellectual excesses and THAT can only happen with the 
MOQ as something outside and above intellect. An intellectual pattern 
cannot alter intellectual value.

Ron:
But how can intellectual value be different than an intellectual pattern.
S/O is the value of the intellectual level.

How will MoQ control intellect when it is out of intellect? what is it going to use?
not intellect that would be subordinating an upper level to a lower level, which
goes against your SOL.













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