[MD] Redressing the MoQ

[skutvik at online.no]

Magnus

3 Mar. :

I had said:  
> > Language as intellect's building block ...hmmm I once thought so
> > too, but it proves that whole cultures (the Muslim) can have
> > language and "thump books" without making it to the 4th. level. Of
> > course, language is employed by intellect (like Pirsig said) for
> > it's own purpose) but its "carbon"  ... hardly.

Magnus:
> Just to clarify, when you say "making it to the 4th level", I
> interpret it as the Muslim culture is ruled by social rules instead of
> intellectual. It does *not* mean that Muslim people are not capable of
> reacting to intellectual patterns, i.e. be intelligent. .....

Here's the intelligence-intellect again. To you " ...reacting to intellectual 
patterns" means able to read books, add 2+2 ...etc. which is NOT 
intellectual patterns. Look to what Pirsig deems such :    

    Third, there were moral codes that established the supremacy 
    of the intellectual order over the social order - democracy, trial 
    by jury, freedom of speech, freedom of the press.  

It's these intellectual values the Muslim World can't accept because 
Islam is the most fossilized Social pattern there is (along with Judaism)   

> ....I'm still amazed why all people here have never even tried to
> resolve that obvious culprit with the MoQ. 

This part I'm not able to unravel, please explain.

> Regarding the carbon issue, language is almost like carbon, not
> exactly. Carbon is just one possible element to build biological
> patterns with. It happens to be the most suitable in earth's
> environment, but in another environment, another element may be more
> suitable.

OK, I know, but for the moment we are earth-bound.  

> Language however, is absolutely necessary for intellectual patterns.
> One *specific* language, for instance English, would map exactly to
> what carbon is to the biological level. If you write something in
> English, like this post, you require English to decode the message as
> intellectual patterns. Without English, the intellectual patterns are
> gone. It's exactly the same with carbon and biological patterns built
> with it. Take the carbon away, and the biological patterns are as
> gone. I have no idea how it's possible to *not* realize that
> similarity.

The social LEVEL is absolute necessary for the intellectual LEVEL and 
as Pirsig says intellect "employs" social patterns - language included - 
....where intellect has risen above society. Elsewhere  - in the Muslim 
culture - language goes on as a means of studying the Koran. 

> I still can't fathom how you can just demote both Neanderthal and
> human "respective" intelligence to mere biology, that's what you're
> doing right? 

Intelligence is clearly connected to/with brain and brain is biology. The 
intelligence of an amoebas is nil while that of a creature with the 
slightest neural knot is present, and that of the Homo Sapiens is 
immense. But remember this is the MOQ, not the intellectual level 
where brain (hardware) is one universe and experience a different 
universe.      

> And you show no signs of even trying to understand what I'm saying
> regarding the difference between individual intellect and an
> intellectually governed society. 

Right, if we enter that the MOQ is gone. Admittedly we -  Westerners - 
are aggregates of all value levels, thus out societies are intellect-
governed, but this is not what you mean by "individual intellect" rather 
the same as David Thomas that some intellect has been around since 
the said brain knot only forming a "level" some millions year later.

Bodvar