[MD] Intellectual Level

[John Carl]

Arlo the seeker,

[Arlo]
> Even when you children tell you they are hungry? Do you demand evidence of
> their hunger before feeding them? How would you accomplish this? Measure
> their blood-sugar?
>

John:

Well, if I know they've just eaten a large meal, then I don't believe them
if they say they are hungry.  If we're on vacation and its been about 7
hours since the last meal, then I do.  Overall experience is what tells me
if they are hungry or not.  Their words are not always reliable, as anyone
who has raised children can confirm.

 Arlo:


> Seriously, though, no one is asking you take DMB's or Pirsig's word that
> the sky is blue. But in this context, if Pirsig says that DMB understands
> his ideas to that degree, then why would I not take that at face value?


John:

Well it definitely gets me leaning that way.  And I've been here for a while
and I started out with that assumption.  But reading his argumentation style
with myself, with Matt, with Craig and Platt and Krimel... I lost faith in
that particular judgment.  Nobody's perfect in all their judgments.
Sometimes we have to wait for future experience to reveal the truth.


Arlo:


> I mean, I think Pirsig is a better judge about whether someone understands
> his ideas than I am. Do YOU think you're a better judge of who understands
> Pirsig than Pirsig? Does this you mean understand Pirsig better than he
> understands himself?
>
>
John:

An interesting question, actually.  I'd say its possible.  I'm not sure.
But often others see me more clearly than I see myself.  Often I notice
things about others that they don't notice about themselves, so I can't just
discount the possibility entirely.  I make my best judgment and then see how
my judgment reconciles with experience.

You and I both deeply appreciate the MoQ, obviously - we're here.  Yet you
and I both disagree about cutting off  social patterning to humans.  From my
perspective, Pirsig was mistaken about this.  I'd say from my perspective,
if Pirsig has any weaknesses in his thinking, it's a blind spot as far as
sociality is concerned.  He pretty much admits this in his books, and if you
think about it, its a key component of both tales.  But being aware of one's
blind spot is no guarantee that you can see.

Arlo:


> That's all this is. Its not about being "right" about everything, or that
> no one else can ever be right about anything, or that newbies should just
> shut up, or that you aren't a philosopher too, or any such nonsense like
> that. This whole thing was in the context of accusations about DMB having a
> "shallow" understanding of Pirsig's ideas, and if Pirsig himself thinks to
> the contrary, then I think such accusations can be summarily dismissed.
>
>
John:

Fair enough.  I do not believe that dave has a shallow understanding of
Pirsig's ideas.  But neither do I believe that he grasps those ideas better
than anybody else in the whole wide world (excepting Ant).  In fact, I'm
very, very sure that there are many people in the world, not on this list,
not participating in this dialogue, who have been exposed to Pirsig's ideas
and they "get it" better than you, I or dmb ever could.  And it is my belief
that many, many people have taken those ideas and run with them,
encompassing a Quality effort in their lives that manifests in success and
happiness.  You mentioned Crawford - Shopcraft as Soulcraft - and he comes
to mind.  No doubt there are more.

Arlo:


> Unless you want to argue with Pirsig that he is poor judge of who
> understands his ideas, and that you are better able to make determinations
> about who understands him than he is, in which case that is where your
> follow-up should be, I don't know what more I can say.
>
>
John:  Well, I obviously do want to argue with Pirsig in some areas, and
anointing dmb as heir apparent is definitely one of them.  dmb is just not
judicious enough.  But I don't know what more I can say either.  That's
sorta why I ended the last missive "th-th-thass all, folks."  Because I
couldn't see any fruitful end of this dialogue and you'd made a reference to
bugs bunny.

But one thing I should make clear, I don't think dave should go away or
anything like that.  I just think he should be knocked off his pedestal as
teacher's pet.  For his sake, as much as anybody else's, ya know?  That kind
of thing is just unhealthy and I don't think dmb has been done any favors by
it.  It seems to me, just the opposite.

In the community building model that I study, there is a phenomena known as
the "scapegoat the leader"  that any true community inevitably goes
through.  Its a very necessary process, but very painful.  To avoid that
pain, by anointing another might seem like an expediency, but it's really
unfair, imo.

Whew!  We're really getting into it now.  Could we go back to talking
drivel?  This kind of stuff makes me squirm.

John