[MD] Pragmatic Fruits Indeed

[118]

Hi Andre (paragraph addressed below my questions)

I am interested in learning more about this time lag.  Recently is a post to
John, I pointed out the research of Benjamin Libet which caused a stir in
the 1970's.  His studies suggested that before conscious action there is a
readiness potential which make the decision before one is aware of, about a
half second delay.  This of course has implications in the notion of free
will.  Is this what you mean?  I read about this over 30 years ago.  Or, are
you pointing to something new which is outside the brain?

Are you pointing towards models of prerational intelligence which I have
brought up in this forum?  Such things are considered in behavioral
robotics, and provide an alternative to artificial intelligence.  Are you
speaking of the lag between when light hits the retina and we are aware of
it?  This is a physiological phenomenon that has been known for some time.
 When do you "see a tree", is it before you "see" it?

Regardless, when one is thinking about things they are thought about in the
present.  The past may be in our memories, but when we are thinking about
it, it is in our present.  Or is such thinking delayed in some way?   Are
you suggesting that such thinking happens in the past?  If the past as
remembered in the present is unreal, then is the process of such a recall
illusionary and not really happening?  Please provide some more information
on what you are talking about so that we can discuss it in light of
information currently available.

It would seem that you are making Quality much more mysterious than it needs
to be.  You know what is better, is that something which already happened
and is not real?  There is no need to subscribe to such mystical or physical
psychology notions in a metaphysics.  We do not need to do voodoo or seances
to realize Quality.  Such a thing puts Quality in the realm of gods.

Look forward to your response if this is more than just heckling.  If you
think you've got it, well nice try, you are not convincing, yet.  If you
want paradoxes, I can give you plenty.

Cheers,
Mark


On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Andre Broersen <andrebroersen at gmail.com>wrote:

> Mark to dmb:
>
> Dynamic quality is right now, it is nothing mysterious if you can recognize
> it.
>
> Andre:
> 'He simply meant that at the cutting edge of time,before an object is
> distinguished, there must be some kind of non-intellectual awareness, which
> he called awareness of Quality. You can't be aware that you've seen a tree
> until AFTER you've seen the tree, and between the instant of vision and the
> instant of awareness there must be a time lag. We sometimes think of this
> time lag as unimportant. But there is no justification for thinking that the
> time lag is unimportant-none WHATSOEVER.
> The past exists only in our memories, the future only in our plans. The
> present is our only reality. The tree that you're aware of intellectually,
> because of that small time lag, is always in the past and therefore is
> always unreal. ANY intellectually conceived object is ALWAYS in the past and
> therefore UNREAL. Reality is always the moment of vision BEFORE the
> intellectualization takes place. THERE IS NO OTHER REALITY'. (ZMM p241,
> Pirsig's emphasis)
>
> Since 'now' is an intellectual concept it means that Quality is eluded,
> because of the time lag. It is important to keep all concepts out of Dynamic
> Quality but it is indeed 'nothing mysterious' if you reCOGNIZE it. You just
> think you've got it. Nice try.
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