[MD] Step One

MarshaV valkyr at att.net
Wed Oct 20 02:53:03 PDT 2010 



I admire your attempts at being coherent.  It was a compliment.  Keep trying...  

 

On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:39 AM, ADRIE KINTZIGER wrote:

> MarshaV aan moq_discuss
> details weergeven 11:29 (7 minuten geleden)
> 
> 
> Adrie,
> 
> Try to keep it sticking together, with you?
> 
> 
> Marsha
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijke bericht weergeven -
> 
> Not sure if this question is to be meant sarcastic?, or an open end
> question,..if you like to clarify?
> Have to do some work now, so gone with the wind,....back in the evening
> 
> 
> 
> 2010/10/20 MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> 
>> 
>> Adrie,
>> 
>> Try to keep it sticking together, will you?
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:24 AM, ADRIE KINTZIGER wrote:
>> 
>>> If you insist on the phrase, "formalised subject/object" conceptual
>>> framework, Marsha, then the model you
>>> propose, is called science, and it is a sol-ution , not even a
>>> somreasoning.Not that i disagree on developing the framework.
>>> 
>>> One of the problems this model contains, is in fact that the framework is
>>> already there,it is impossible to re-invent it every day.
>>> But i think you are digging for fine-tuning,nothing wrong with that.
>>> 
>>> 2010/10/20 MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 4:55 PM, Dan Glover wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hello everyone
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:30 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 12:48 PM, 118 wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 7:29 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Dan Glover wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hello everyone
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 4:26 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 18, 2010, at 11:39 PM, Dan Glover wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The intellectual level is just thinking, plain and simple. You
>> know
>>>>>>>> that, John.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Marsha:
>>>>>>>>>> Aren't all patterns conceptually constructed?  Wouldn't that make
>>>> all
>>>>>>>> levels "just thinking?"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hi Marsha
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I would say that within the framework of the MOQ, inorganic and
>>>>>>>>> biological patterns are physical. We can touch them, examine them.
>>>>>>>>> Social and intellectual patterns are mental... like the President
>> of
>>>>>>>>> the United States. There is no way to physically tell the President
>>>>>>>>> apart from any other human being by examination. So to answer your
>>>>>>>>> question, no, not all levels are "just thinking." In addition,
>> there
>>>>>>>>> seem to social patterns of value that are not intellectual, like
>>>>>>>>> saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes. Those types of patterns
>> are
>>>>>>>>> ingrained in us to the extent that we really don't think about it.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Dan,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If I think "Should I say "Bless you." to this guy." does that make
>> it
>>>> an
>>>>>>>> intellectual static pattern of value or a social static pattern of
>>>> value?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mark:
>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Marsha:
>>>>>> And the notion that the Intellectual Level represent theology,
>> science,
>>>> philosophy
>>>>>> and mathematics has collapsed into thinking about whether to say
>> "Bless
>>>> you.",
>>>>>> or not?   No, I don't buy that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Marsha
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sometimes in order to make the complicated a bit simpler, we start
>>>>> small. I mean, there are only four levels and they contain everything
>>>>> (except Dynamic Quality), so obviously we are using analogy here to
>>>>> order our understanding of reality. Theology, science, philosophy and
>>>>> mathematics are made up of both social and intellectual pattens. They
>>>>> are often cultural-specific, as Robert Pirsig points out.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I hope that helps.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha:
>>>> In Anthony's PhD it states that science theology, mathematics and
>>>> philosophy are
>>>> intellectual quality patterns. So here's my understanding of the
>>>> Intellectual Level:
>>>> 
>>>> The Intellectual Level, the fourth level, is comprised of static
>> patterns
>>>> of value such
>>>> as science theology, mathematics and philosophy. The way that these
>>>> patterns
>>>> function is as reified concepts and the rules for their rational
>> analysis
>>>> and manipulation.
>>>> Reification decontextualizes.  Intellectual patterns process from a
>>>> subject/object
>>>> conceptual framework creating false boundaries that give the illusion of
>>>> independence
>>>> as a “thing” or an “object of analysis.”  The fourth level is a
>> formalized
>>>> subject/object
>>>> level (SOM), where the paramount demand is for rational, objective
>>>> knowledge, which
>>>> is free from the taint of any subjectivity like emotions, inclinations,
>>>> fears and compulsions
>>>> in order to pursue study and research in an unbiased and rational
>> manner.
>>>> 
>>>> All patterns are interdependent so naturally there would be a
>> relationship
>>>> with social
>>>> level patterns.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ___
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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