[MD] Post-Intellectualism

[John Carl]

Andre,




On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Andre <andrebroersen at gmail.com> wrote:

> John said to Dan:
> Jc: I have trouble with that, at least as it pertains to the 3rd and 4th.
> Society and Intellect are so intertwined - all intellect is predicated upon
> socially derived symbology and all social patterns have some sort of
> guiding 4th level metaphysical underpinnings of which they are unconscious.
> When you try and apply the analytical knife, the subject gets very
> slippery. Pirsig himself said when it comes to social patterns, it's hard
> to picture anything that isn't one.
>
> Andre:
> To distinguish the social level from the intellectual level let me offer
> an example John. It is rather _simplistic_ but see it as a starting
> metaphor: imagine a game of football or soccer...the players are
> representing social patterns of value. There are rules to this game and
> codes of conduct. Enter the umpire. This is representative of intellectual
> patterns of value. The umpire keeps an eye on adherence to the rules of the
> game and the codes of conduct _of which the players are aware_. But that is
> not their prime objective. Their prime objective is to score points or a
> goal (fame, fortune and glory). All the umpire does is making sure the game
> is played within the rules and codes of conduct. Sometimes he or she
> acts/intervenes when an infringement or violation occurs. At other times he
> or she just watches to keep an eye on developments.
>
> Now, are the players in competition with the umpire (as you claim)? NO!!!


Jc:  When have I claimed that players compete with the ref/ump?  My
arguments have all been aimed at debunking the idea that social patterns
are in competition with 4th level patterns.  My assertion is, and has been,
that all competition is social.

Andre:


> But the umpire is most definitely in conflict with the player(s)and vice
> versa (usually pleading innocence or ignorance) who commit an infringement
> or violate a rule.
>

Jc:  An umpire is sometimes in conflict with a certain player or one side
over another, but in a big picture way, the ump is necessary to keep a
smooth game rolling along.  The ump's motives and the player's motives are
not in conflict but identical - both players and ump want a fair game.


Andre:


>
> Are they 'intertwined'?


Jc:  They are intertwined in the goal of game-playing.  I have a much
broader perspective on game playing because a book by James P. Carse
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games> came out with a
blurb from our favorite RMP on the cover and because this was the lull in
time between ZAMM and Lila and I was desperate to read something by or from
the elusive Pirsig, I jumped on that book like a bear on honey.  Later,
when Lila came out, I think I was pretty well prepped by Carse's work to
see where Pirsig was coming from.  But that's just a vague intuition.

Anyway, if you haven't read *Finite and Infinite Games*, I highly recommend
that you do.


Andre:



> That depends on one's state of confusion. Can you still see the forest for
> the trees? Usually, as in the example, the dress is quite different and the
> umpire or referee has a whistle. That is how they are easily distinguished.
> If you do not know the game and wonder what this bloke or lass is doing
> with a whistle in their mouth? Just watch the game unfold and you'll soon
> find out.
>
> So now, forget the bodies and the dress and the whistle and see patterns
> of value...social patterns and intellectual patterns. Are these patterns
> intertwined? That depends on how carefully you look. It may seem that way
> but they are not because we talk of two different sets of values.
>
> (Perhaps here John you may want to consult Gregory Alvord's response to
> Anthony's PhD to be found at the robertpirsig site).
>
> The rules of the game and codes codes of conduct(derived from)intellectual
> patterns of value.
>
>
Jc:  Except that's not the way it happens in real life, Andre.  In the
actual facts of the matter, the rules and codes of conduct are derived from
the way people play.  Read W. James if you don't believe me!

 Andre;

A famous Dutch trainer/coach argued that soccer is war. (remember here the
> Geneva Convention where, even in wartime, there are codes of conduct based
> on intellectual patterns of value...justice, human rights etc). This is
> where, for example the International War Tribunal in The Hague finds its
> existence in[...not recognized by the USA by the way].
>
> Hope this helps a little.
>
>
Jc:  It helps to have a rational discourse, but what did you think of
Ron's  Friere example on the difference between narrative teaching and
discourse?  I thought that was brilliant and indicative of some problems
that crop up between us at times.  I'm expecting a discourse and what I'm
getting is a narration. to which I react poorly.

John

Ps, You probably figured this out but my sig is from the aforementioned *Finite
and Infinite Games.*

-- 
"finite players
play within boundaries.
Infinite players
play *with* boundaries."