[MD] Rhetoric

Tuukka Virtaperko mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net
Mon Jan 2 05:27:02 PST 2017 

Ron,

and why am I asking you this question that sounds so offensive?

"What is so good about society that you would defend it against me?"

I agree that sounds pretty selfish. But what's *wrong* about it 
according to the MOQ? The MOQ doesn't state it's wrong to be selfish. It 
states that intellect is superior to society.

The point I am making here is a parody of what you believe in. It is 
also a literally accurate implementation of your beliefs, if you believe 
in Pirsig's MOQ, but it is so grotesque it is polite to call it a parody.

See, I was being polite to you. But I don't sound polite anymore because 
I made a fuss of it.

My current behavior lacks aesthetic appeal. You are capable of 
intuitively perceiving this. But since you believe in Pirsig's MOQ you 
are compelled to search for an explanation for your intuition from the 
four boxes Pirsig gave to you. These are labeled "inorganic", 
"biological", "social" and "intellectual".

You just sought for an explanation for your intuition from the box 
labeled "social". According to Pirsig's MOQ this was the wrong thing to 
do. Intellect is superior to society so you can't find anything from 
that box that you could use to point out that there's something wrong 
about my behavior.

 From your viewpoint, your intuition of the repugnancy of my behavior is 
Dynamic Quality! But if you keep experiencing it over and over again it 
will cease to appear to be so Dynamic. So it should become static. But 
if you believe in Pirsig's MOQ, this means your intuition should 
eventually settle down in one of the four boxes provided by Robert Pirsig.

And I'm going to keep doing this until you:

- Assign my repugnant behavior to a category provided by Pirsig and 
explain the assignment

or:

- Assume that you need more categories (which I have provided)

so, which one is it going to be?

Tuk





On 02-Jan-17 14:06, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
> Ron,
>
> what is so good about society that you would defend it against me?
>
> Tuk
>
>
>
>
> On 02-Jan-17 13:32, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>> Ron,
>>
>> If someone can devote time and effort for researching the purported 
>> topic of this mailing list, it is regarded by someone else as a bad 
>> thing. That someone else is put off by himself having a job which 
>> precludes him from participating except in a mediocre way. However, 
>> Phaedrus's aim in ZAMM was not to define or discover or understand 
>> mediocrity. It was to understand excellence.
>>
>> Tuk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 02-Jan-17 13:22, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>> Please consider what it does to a person not to have a credible 
>>> intellectual authority as a child. You are implying that I have 
>>> caused this burden to fall upon me. But I have not caused the 
>>> ineptitude of others.
>>>
>>> When you are sick to death of my narcissism, you are sick to death 
>>> of how insignificant it makes you feel. You think you are entitled 
>>> to feel better. I think I am also entitled to feel better. But we 
>>> don't, do we?
>>>
>>> Is the psychiatrist who put me on pension making a useful 
>>> contribution to society? If not, why should I?
>>>
>>> Tuk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 01-Jan-17 18:01, X Acto wrote:
>>>> Tuk,
>>>> I guess everyone is being nice to you or ignoring you because 
>>>> you're a "man-child" with out a job or purpose who lives in his 
>>>> parents basement mentally masturbating to what he thinks is his own 
>>>> genius. When in fact he is basing his entire argument on a logical 
>>>> fallacy.
>>>> You may be a genius when it comes to logical functions but when it 
>>>> comes to critical thinking skills you can't reason yourself out of 
>>>> a wet paper bag.
>>>> Things aren't quiet because you are right and no one can stand up 
>>>> to your towering intellect . It's that you're so wrong no one has 
>>>> the time or energy to prove it to you and your immense ego.
>>>>
>>>> Since I have made a New Years resolution not to get involved in 
>>>> discussions here that I can't devote my full attention to, this 
>>>> tirade is basically cathartic. I'm sick to death of your narcissism.
>>>>
>>>> Grow up, get a job and make yourself useful to society And have a 
>>>> great new year in the process.
>>>>
>>>> -Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:53 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko 
>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The brain is not a muscle, Dave. If you're wrong, that's it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 2:33, david wrote:
>>>>>> Howdy, Adrie, MOQers all:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know about Chris Langan's CTMU but Tuukka's criticism is 
>>>>>> not correct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The MOQ does not include anything like Kant's noumenal reality or 
>>>>>> "things-in-themselves" and the MOQ holds that phenomenal reality 
>>>>>> is the only
>>>>>> reality we can know. The phenomenal reality is NOT romantic 
>>>>>> quality. When Pirsig refers to Dynamic Quality as "direct 
>>>>>> everyday experience," "the primary empirical reality," or quotes 
>>>>>> William James referring to "the immediate flux of reality," and 
>>>>>> "pure experience" he is talking about phenomenal reality as such.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tuukka's claims to have improved the MOQ are quite preposterous. 
>>>>>> Obviously, there's no way to "improve" the MOQ or create an 
>>>>>> alternative without understanding it first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Buyer beware.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on 
>>>>>> behalf of Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 6:43 AM
>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think its good to read these materials.But things on wiki's are 
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> always what they seem.Some are very deceptive.
>>>>>> In fact, what this author is presenting here is actually nothing 
>>>>>> more than a
>>>>>> collection of derivatives from Wittgensteins work on logic.It is 
>>>>>> spiced and
>>>>>> salted with some previously known paradoxes in a new disguise.
>>>>>> The best way of putting it  ,in my opinion,is to regard it as a 
>>>>>> new attempt
>>>>>> to launch the Tractatus-logico etc,....explained with the 
>>>>>> terminology of a
>>>>>> computerprogrammer, or a very strong logical thinker.And a very 
>>>>>> intelligent
>>>>>> thinker,...clearly,this however does not prove him right in any 
>>>>>> way or
>>>>>> field.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think it will generate clarifications on reality 
>>>>>> itself,or add new
>>>>>> insights;
>>>>>> it is kinda developed to work as an upide down gearbox,not 
>>>>>> shifting up, but
>>>>>> in fact , shifting down further, in a halted car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wished you would not take this as critisism, because it 
>>>>>> is'nt.You should
>>>>>> explore these things, they are less boring than Wittgenstein,and 
>>>>>> he was not
>>>>>> all that clever also.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the only part of critics i have is about your statement, 
>>>>>> "competitor to the
>>>>>> moq and amoq", There is no competion,connection,or game to win.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2016-12-31 8:52 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko 
>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris Langan, developer of the CTMU, which is a competitor to 
>>>>>>> the MOQ and
>>>>>>> AMOQ, does not understand the MOQ.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Citing http://ctmucommunity.org/wiki/Cognitive-Theoretic_Model_of_t
>>>>>>> he_Universe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, mind acts as a filter: that which does not 
>>>>>>> conform to
>>>>>>> mental categories is irrelevant to perception, and therefore not 
>>>>>>> real.
>>>>>>> Langan here breaks with Kant, who posited a noumenal reality of
>>>>>>> "things-in-themselves", independent of the phenomenal reality we 
>>>>>>> perceive.
>>>>>>> Discarding this "Kantian fallacy", Langan rejects noumena as 
>>>>>>> oxymoronic
>>>>>>> "inconceivable concepts"[21] and holds that phenomenal reality, 
>>>>>>> as the only
>>>>>>> reality we can know, is the only reality there is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This means Langan's understanding of philosophy is at the level 
>>>>>>> of ZAMM.
>>>>>>> It is not at the level of LILA. The phenomenal reality is 
>>>>>>> romantic quality.
>>>>>>> Langan is oblivious to Dynamic Quality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>
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