[MD] Rhetoric

mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net
Tue Jan 3 01:30:38 PST 2017


Horse,
Can we change the mailing list rules? I need to call Ron a "dickwad"  
as a part of a dialectical technique that seems rhetorical to him  
because he doesn't understand it.

Tuk



Lainaus Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:

> Ron,
>
> and why am I asking you this question that sounds so offensive?
>
> "What is so good about society that you would defend it against me?"
>
> I agree that sounds pretty selfish. But what's *wrong* about it
> according to the MOQ? The MOQ doesn't state it's wrong to be selfish.
> It states that intellect is superior to society.
>
> The point I am making here is a parody of what you believe in. It is
> also a literally accurate implementation of your beliefs, if you
> believe in Pirsig's MOQ, but it is so grotesque it is polite to call it
> a parody.
>
> See, I was being polite to you. But I don't sound polite anymore
> because I made a fuss of it.
>
> My current behavior lacks aesthetic appeal. You are capable of
> intuitively perceiving this. But since you believe in Pirsig's MOQ you
> are compelled to search for an explanation for your intuition from the
> four boxes Pirsig gave to you. These are labeled "inorganic",
> "biological", "social" and "intellectual".
>
> You just sought for an explanation for your intuition from the box
> labeled "social". According to Pirsig's MOQ this was the wrong thing to
> do. Intellect is superior to society so you can't find anything from
> that box that you could use to point out that there's something wrong
> about my behavior.
>
> From your viewpoint, your intuition of the repugnancy of my behavior is
> Dynamic Quality! But if you keep experiencing it over and over again it
> will cease to appear to be so Dynamic. So it should become static. But
> if you believe in Pirsig's MOQ, this means your intuition should
> eventually settle down in one of the four boxes provided by Robert
> Pirsig.
>
> And I'm going to keep doing this until you:
>
> - Assign my repugnant behavior to a category provided by Pirsig and
> explain the assignment
>
> or:
>
> - Assume that you need more categories (which I have provided)
>
> so, which one is it going to be?
>
> Tuk
>
>
>
>
>
> On 02-Jan-17 14:06, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>> Ron,
>>
>> what is so good about society that you would defend it against me?
>>
>> Tuk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 02-Jan-17 13:32, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>> Ron,
>>>
>>> If someone can devote time and effort for researching the   
>>> purported topic of this mailing list, it is regarded by someone   
>>> else as a bad thing. That someone else is put off by himself   
>>> having a job which precludes him from participating except in a   
>>> mediocre way. However, Phaedrus's aim in ZAMM was not to define or  
>>>  discover or understand mediocrity. It was to understand excellence.
>>>
>>> Tuk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:22, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>> Please consider what it does to a person not to have a credible   
>>>> intellectual authority as a child. You are implying that I have   
>>>> caused this burden to fall upon me. But I have not caused the   
>>>> ineptitude of others.
>>>>
>>>> When you are sick to death of my narcissism, you are sick to   
>>>> death of how insignificant it makes you feel. You think you are   
>>>> entitled to feel better. I think I am also entitled to feel   
>>>> better. But we don't, do we?
>>>>
>>>> Is the psychiatrist who put me on pension making a useful   
>>>> contribution to society? If not, why should I?
>>>>
>>>> Tuk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 01-Jan-17 18:01, X Acto wrote:
>>>>> Tuk,
>>>>> I guess everyone is being nice to you or ignoring you because   
>>>>> you're a "man-child" with out a job or purpose who lives in his   
>>>>> parents basement mentally masturbating to what he thinks is his   
>>>>> own genius. When in fact he is basing his entire argument on a   
>>>>> logical fallacy.
>>>>> You may be a genius when it comes to logical functions but when   
>>>>> it comes to critical thinking skills you can't reason yourself   
>>>>> out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>> Things aren't quiet because you are right and no one can stand   
>>>>> up to your towering intellect . It's that you're so wrong no one  
>>>>>  has the time or energy to prove it to you and your immense ego.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I have made a New Years resolution not to get involved in   
>>>>> discussions here that I can't devote my full attention to, this   
>>>>> tirade is basically cathartic. I'm sick to death of your   
>>>>> narcissism.
>>>>>
>>>>> Grow up, get a job and make yourself useful to society And have   
>>>>> a great new year in the process.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Ron
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:53 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko   
>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The brain is not a muscle, Dave. If you're wrong, that's it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 2:33, david wrote:
>>>>>>> Howdy, Adrie, MOQers all:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know about Chris Langan's CTMU but Tuukka's criticism   
>>>>>>> is not correct.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The MOQ does not include anything like Kant's noumenal reality  
>>>>>>>  or "things-in-themselves" and the MOQ holds that phenomenal   
>>>>>>> reality is the only
>>>>>>> reality we can know. The phenomenal reality is NOT romantic   
>>>>>>> quality. When Pirsig refers to Dynamic Quality as "direct   
>>>>>>> everyday experience," "the primary empirical reality," or   
>>>>>>> quotes William James referring to "the immediate flux of   
>>>>>>> reality," and "pure experience" he is talking about phenomenal  
>>>>>>>  reality as such.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tuukka's claims to have improved the MOQ are quite   
>>>>>>> preposterous. Obviously, there's no way to "improve" the MOQ   
>>>>>>> or create an alternative without understanding it first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Buyer beware.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on   
>>>>>>> behalf of Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 6:43 AM
>>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think its good to read these materials.But things on wiki's are not
>>>>>>> always what they seem.Some are very deceptive.
>>>>>>> In fact, what this author is presenting here is actually   
>>>>>>> nothing more than a
>>>>>>> collection of derivatives from Wittgensteins work on logic.It   
>>>>>>> is spiced and
>>>>>>> salted with some previously known paradoxes in a new disguise.
>>>>>>> The best way of putting it  ,in my opinion,is to regard it as   
>>>>>>> a new attempt
>>>>>>> to launch the Tractatus-logico etc,....explained with the   
>>>>>>> terminology of a
>>>>>>> computerprogrammer, or a very strong logical thinker.And a   
>>>>>>> very intelligent
>>>>>>> thinker,...clearly,this however does not prove him right in any way or
>>>>>>> field.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think it will generate clarifications on reality   
>>>>>>> itself,or add new
>>>>>>> insights;
>>>>>>> it is kinda developed to work as an upide down gearbox,not   
>>>>>>> shifting up, but
>>>>>>> in fact , shifting down further, in a halted car.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wished you would not take this as critisism, because it   
>>>>>>> is'nt.You should
>>>>>>> explore these things, they are less boring than   
>>>>>>> Wittgenstein,and he was not
>>>>>>> all that clever also.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the only part of critics i have is about your statement,   
>>>>>>> "competitor to the
>>>>>>> moq and amoq", There is no competion,connection,or game to win.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2016-12-31 8:52 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko   
>>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chris Langan, developer of the CTMU, which is a competitor to  
>>>>>>>>  the MOQ and
>>>>>>>> AMOQ, does not understand the MOQ.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Citing http://ctmucommunity.org/wiki/Cognitive-Theoretic_Model_of_t
>>>>>>>> he_Universe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the other hand, mind acts as a filter: that which does not  
>>>>>>>>  conform to
>>>>>>>> mental categories is irrelevant to perception, and therefore not real.
>>>>>>>> Langan here breaks with Kant, who posited a noumenal reality of
>>>>>>>> "things-in-themselves", independent of the phenomenal reality  
>>>>>>>>  we perceive.
>>>>>>>> Discarding this "Kantian fallacy", Langan rejects noumena as   
>>>>>>>> oxymoronic
>>>>>>>> "inconceivable concepts"[21] and holds that phenomenal   
>>>>>>>> reality, as the only
>>>>>>>> reality we can know, is the only reality there is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This means Langan's understanding of philosophy is at the   
>>>>>>>> level of ZAMM.
>>>>>>>> It is not at the level of LILA. The phenomenal reality is   
>>>>>>>> romantic quality.
>>>>>>>> Langan is oblivious to Dynamic Quality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>
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