[MD] Rhetoric
mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net
mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net
Tue Jan 3 02:08:46 PST 2017
Horse,
GET BACK IN HERE AND TELL ME CAN I CALL RON A "DICKWAD" OR NOT
It is funny because it's true. Wait, what is?
It's true that by behaving this way I am actually acknowledging that
intellectual patterns depend on social patterns. They need social
patterns to survive. So I try to verify that my behavior is in
accordance with social norms.
AND I'M STILL DOING IT WRONG
But you don't have a category for the reason why it's wrong. I do, and
you refuse it because I have made it a humiliating thing to accept.
But your metaphysics doesn't explain this humiliating feeling. It says
you should thank me. Why don't you want to do so?
Why don't you want to thank me for dominating sociality with intellect
while verifying that my behavior isn't socially inappropriate?
Tuk
Lainaus mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
> Horse,
> Can we change the mailing list rules? I need to call Ron a "dickwad" as
> a part of a dialectical technique that seems rhetorical to him because
> he doesn't understand it.
>
> Tuk
>
>
>
> Lainaus Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>
>> Ron,
>>
>> and why am I asking you this question that sounds so offensive?
>>
>> "What is so good about society that you would defend it against me?"
>>
>> I agree that sounds pretty selfish. But what's *wrong* about it
>> according to the MOQ? The MOQ doesn't state it's wrong to be selfish.
>> It states that intellect is superior to society.
>>
>> The point I am making here is a parody of what you believe in. It is
>> also a literally accurate implementation of your beliefs, if you
>> believe in Pirsig's MOQ, but it is so grotesque it is polite to call it
>> a parody.
>>
>> See, I was being polite to you. But I don't sound polite anymore
>> because I made a fuss of it.
>>
>> My current behavior lacks aesthetic appeal. You are capable of
>> intuitively perceiving this. But since you believe in Pirsig's MOQ you
>> are compelled to search for an explanation for your intuition from the
>> four boxes Pirsig gave to you. These are labeled "inorganic",
>> "biological", "social" and "intellectual".
>>
>> You just sought for an explanation for your intuition from the box
>> labeled "social". According to Pirsig's MOQ this was the wrong thing to
>> do. Intellect is superior to society so you can't find anything from
>> that box that you could use to point out that there's something wrong
>> about my behavior.
>>
>> From your viewpoint, your intuition of the repugnancy of my behavior is
>> Dynamic Quality! But if you keep experiencing it over and over again it
>> will cease to appear to be so Dynamic. So it should become static. But
>> if you believe in Pirsig's MOQ, this means your intuition should
>> eventually settle down in one of the four boxes provided by Robert
>> Pirsig.
>>
>> And I'm going to keep doing this until you:
>>
>> - Assign my repugnant behavior to a category provided by Pirsig and
>> explain the assignment
>>
>> or:
>>
>> - Assume that you need more categories (which I have provided)
>>
>> so, which one is it going to be?
>>
>> Tuk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 02-Jan-17 14:06, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>> Ron,
>>>
>>> what is so good about society that you would defend it against me?
>>>
>>> Tuk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:32, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>> Ron,
>>>>
>>>> If someone can devote time and effort for researching the
>>>> purported topic of this mailing list, it is regarded by someone
>>>> else as a bad thing. That someone else is put off by himself
>>>> having a job which precludes him from participating except in a
>>>> mediocre way. However, Phaedrus's aim in ZAMM was not to define
>>>> or discover or understand mediocrity. It was to understand
>>>> excellence.
>>>>
>>>> Tuk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:22, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>> Please consider what it does to a person not to have a credible
>>>>> intellectual authority as a child. You are implying that I have
>>>>> caused this burden to fall upon me. But I have not caused the
>>>>> ineptitude of others.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you are sick to death of my narcissism, you are sick to
>>>>> death of how insignificant it makes you feel. You think you are
>>>>> entitled to feel better. I think I am also entitled to feel
>>>>> better. But we don't, do we?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the psychiatrist who put me on pension making a useful
>>>>> contribution to society? If not, why should I?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 18:01, X Acto wrote:
>>>>>> Tuk,
>>>>>> I guess everyone is being nice to you or ignoring you because
>>>>>> you're a "man-child" with out a job or purpose who lives in his
>>>>>> parents basement mentally masturbating to what he thinks is
>>>>>> his own genius. When in fact he is basing his entire argument
>>>>>> on a logical fallacy.
>>>>>> You may be a genius when it comes to logical functions but when
>>>>>> it comes to critical thinking skills you can't reason
>>>>>> yourself out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>>> Things aren't quiet because you are right and no one can stand
>>>>>> up to your towering intellect . It's that you're so wrong no
>>>>>> one has the time or energy to prove it to you and your immense
>>>>>> ego.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I have made a New Years resolution not to get involved in
>>>>>> discussions here that I can't devote my full attention to,
>>>>>> this tirade is basically cathartic. I'm sick to death of your
>>>>>> narcissism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Grow up, get a job and make yourself useful to society And have
>>>>>> a great new year in the process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Ron
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:53 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko
>>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The brain is not a muscle, Dave. If you're wrong, that's it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 2:33, david wrote:
>>>>>>>> Howdy, Adrie, MOQers all:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know about Chris Langan's CTMU but Tuukka's criticism
>>>>>>>> is not correct.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The MOQ does not include anything like Kant's noumenal
>>>>>>>> reality or "things-in-themselves" and the MOQ holds that
>>>>>>>> phenomenal reality is the only
>>>>>>>> reality we can know. The phenomenal reality is NOT romantic
>>>>>>>> quality. When Pirsig refers to Dynamic Quality as "direct
>>>>>>>> everyday experience," "the primary empirical reality," or
>>>>>>>> quotes William James referring to "the immediate flux of
>>>>>>>> reality," and "pure experience" he is talking about
>>>>>>>> phenomenal reality as such.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tuukka's claims to have improved the MOQ are quite
>>>>>>>> preposterous. Obviously, there's no way to "improve" the MOQ
>>>>>>>> or create an alternative without understanding it first.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Buyer beware.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on
>>>>>>>> behalf of Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 6:43 AM
>>>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think its good to read these materials.But things on wiki's are not
>>>>>>>> always what they seem.Some are very deceptive.
>>>>>>>> In fact, what this author is presenting here is actually
>>>>>>>> nothing more than a
>>>>>>>> collection of derivatives from Wittgensteins work on logic.It
>>>>>>>> is spiced and
>>>>>>>> salted with some previously known paradoxes in a new disguise.
>>>>>>>> The best way of putting it ,in my opinion,is to regard it as
>>>>>>>> a new attempt
>>>>>>>> to launch the Tractatus-logico etc,....explained with the
>>>>>>>> terminology of a
>>>>>>>> computerprogrammer, or a very strong logical thinker.And a
>>>>>>>> very intelligent
>>>>>>>> thinker,...clearly,this however does not prove him right in any way or
>>>>>>>> field.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think it will generate clarifications on reality
>>>>>>>> itself,or add new
>>>>>>>> insights;
>>>>>>>> it is kinda developed to work as an upide down gearbox,not
>>>>>>>> shifting up, but
>>>>>>>> in fact , shifting down further, in a halted car.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wished you would not take this as critisism, because it
>>>>>>>> is'nt.You should
>>>>>>>> explore these things, they are less boring than
>>>>>>>> Wittgenstein,and he was not
>>>>>>>> all that clever also.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the only part of critics i have is about your statement,
>>>>>>>> "competitor to the
>>>>>>>> moq and amoq", There is no competion,connection,or game to win.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2016-12-31 8:52 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko
>>>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chris Langan, developer of the CTMU, which is a competitor
>>>>>>>>> to the MOQ and
>>>>>>>>> AMOQ, does not understand the MOQ.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Citing http://ctmucommunity.org/wiki/Cognitive-Theoretic_Model_of_t
>>>>>>>>> he_Universe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, mind acts as a filter: that which does
>>>>>>>>> not conform to
>>>>>>>>> mental categories is irrelevant to perception, and therefore
>>>>>>>>> not real.
>>>>>>>>> Langan here breaks with Kant, who posited a noumenal reality of
>>>>>>>>> "things-in-themselves", independent of the phenomenal
>>>>>>>>> reality we perceive.
>>>>>>>>> Discarding this "Kantian fallacy", Langan rejects noumena as
>>>>>>>>> oxymoronic
>>>>>>>>> "inconceivable concepts"[21] and holds that phenomenal
>>>>>>>>> reality, as the only
>>>>>>>>> reality we can know, is the only reality there is.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This means Langan's understanding of philosophy is at the
>>>>>>>>> level of ZAMM.
>>>>>>>>> It is not at the level of LILA. The phenomenal reality is
>>>>>>>>> romantic quality.
>>>>>>>>> Langan is oblivious to Dynamic Quality.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---
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