[MD] Rhetoric

Jan Anders Andersson jananderses at telia.com
Tue Jan 3 02:54:32 PST 2017


Tukka

Celebrity, my friend, is nothing one can expect or demand,

only by knowing the dynamic quality at the social level it may be deserved.

Jan-Anders



> 3 jan 2017 x kl. 11:08 skrev mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
> 
> Horse,
> 
> GET BACK IN HERE AND TELL ME CAN I CALL RON A "DICKWAD" OR NOT
> 
> It is funny because it's true. Wait, what is?
> 
> It's true that by behaving this way I am actually acknowledging that intellectual patterns depend on social patterns. They need social patterns to survive. So I try to verify that my behavior is in accordance with social norms.
> 
> AND I'M STILL DOING IT WRONG
> 
> But you don't have a category for the reason why it's wrong. I do, and you refuse it because I have made it a humiliating thing to accept. But your metaphysics doesn't explain this humiliating feeling. It says you should thank me. Why don't you want to do so?
> 
> Why don't you want to thank me for dominating sociality with intellect while verifying that my behavior isn't socially inappropriate?
> 
> Tuk
> 
> 
> 
> Lainaus mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
> 
>> Horse,
>> Can we change the mailing list rules? I need to call Ron a "dickwad" as
>> a part of a dialectical technique that seems rhetorical to him because
>> he doesn't understand it.
>> 
>> Tuk
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Lainaus Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>> 
>>> Ron,
>>> 
>>> and why am I asking you this question that sounds so offensive?
>>> 
>>> "What is so good about society that you would defend it against me?"
>>> 
>>> I agree that sounds pretty selfish. But what's *wrong* about it
>>> according to the MOQ? The MOQ doesn't state it's wrong to be selfish.
>>> It states that intellect is superior to society.
>>> 
>>> The point I am making here is a parody of what you believe in. It is
>>> also a literally accurate implementation of your beliefs, if you
>>> believe in Pirsig's MOQ, but it is so grotesque it is polite to call it
>>> a parody.
>>> 
>>> See, I was being polite to you. But I don't sound polite anymore
>>> because I made a fuss of it.
>>> 
>>> My current behavior lacks aesthetic appeal. You are capable of
>>> intuitively perceiving this. But since you believe in Pirsig's MOQ you
>>> are compelled to search for an explanation for your intuition from the
>>> four boxes Pirsig gave to you. These are labeled "inorganic",
>>> "biological", "social" and "intellectual".
>>> 
>>> You just sought for an explanation for your intuition from the box
>>> labeled "social". According to Pirsig's MOQ this was the wrong thing to
>>> do. Intellect is superior to society so you can't find anything from
>>> that box that you could use to point out that there's something wrong
>>> about my behavior.
>>> 
>>> From your viewpoint, your intuition of the repugnancy of my behavior is
>>> Dynamic Quality! But if you keep experiencing it over and over again it
>>> will cease to appear to be so Dynamic. So it should become static. But
>>> if you believe in Pirsig's MOQ, this means your intuition should
>>> eventually settle down in one of the four boxes provided by Robert
>>> Pirsig.
>>> 
>>> And I'm going to keep doing this until you:
>>> 
>>> - Assign my repugnant behavior to a category provided by Pirsig and
>>> explain the assignment
>>> 
>>> or:
>>> 
>>> - Assume that you need more categories (which I have provided)
>>> 
>>> so, which one is it going to be?
>>> 
>>> Tuk
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 02-Jan-17 14:06, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>> Ron,
>>>> 
>>>> what is so good about society that you would defend it against me?
>>>> 
>>>> Tuk
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:32, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>> Ron,
>>>>> 
>>>>> If someone can devote time and effort for researching the   purported topic of this mailing list, it is regarded by someone   else as a bad thing. That someone else is put off by himself   having a job which precludes him from participating except in a   mediocre way. However, Phaedrus's aim in ZAMM was not to define  or  discover or understand mediocrity. It was to understand  excellence.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tuk
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:22, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>> Please consider what it does to a person not to have a credible   intellectual authority as a child. You are implying that I have   caused this burden to fall upon me. But I have not caused the   ineptitude of others.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When you are sick to death of my narcissism, you are sick to   death of how insignificant it makes you feel. You think you are   entitled to feel better. I think I am also entitled to feel   better. But we don't, do we?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Is the psychiatrist who put me on pension making a useful   contribution to society? If not, why should I?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 18:01, X Acto wrote:
>>>>>>> Tuk,
>>>>>>> I guess everyone is being nice to you or ignoring you because   you're a "man-child" with out a job or purpose who lives in his   parents basement mentally masturbating to what he thinks is  his  own genius. When in fact he is basing his entire argument  on a  logical fallacy.
>>>>>>> You may be a genius when it comes to logical functions but when   it comes to critical thinking skills you can't reason yourself   out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>>>> Things aren't quiet because you are right and no one can stand   up to your towering intellect . It's that you're so wrong no  one  has the time or energy to prove it to you and your immense  ego.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Since I have made a New Years resolution not to get involved in   discussions here that I can't devote my full attention to,  this  tirade is basically cathartic. I'm sick to death of your   narcissism.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Grow up, get a job and make yourself useful to society And have   a great new year in the process.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -Ron
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:53 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko   <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The brain is not a muscle, Dave. If you're wrong, that's it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 2:33, david wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Howdy, Adrie, MOQers all:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Chris Langan's CTMU but Tuukka's criticism   is not correct.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The MOQ does not include anything like Kant's noumenal  reality  or "things-in-themselves" and the MOQ holds that  phenomenal  reality is the only
>>>>>>>>> reality we can know. The phenomenal reality is NOT romantic   quality. When Pirsig refers to Dynamic Quality as "direct   everyday experience," "the primary empirical reality," or   quotes William James referring to "the immediate flux of   reality," and "pure experience" he is talking about  phenomenal  reality as such.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Tuukka's claims to have improved the MOQ are quite   preposterous. Obviously, there's no way to "improve" the MOQ   or create an alternative without understanding it first.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Buyer beware.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on   behalf of Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 6:43 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think its good to read these materials.But things on wiki's are not
>>>>>>>>> always what they seem.Some are very deceptive.
>>>>>>>>> In fact, what this author is presenting here is actually   nothing more than a
>>>>>>>>> collection of derivatives from Wittgensteins work on logic.It   is spiced and
>>>>>>>>> salted with some previously known paradoxes in a new disguise.
>>>>>>>>> The best way of putting it  ,in my opinion,is to regard it as   a new attempt
>>>>>>>>> to launch the Tractatus-logico etc,....explained with the   terminology of a
>>>>>>>>> computerprogrammer, or a very strong logical thinker.And a   very intelligent
>>>>>>>>> thinker,...clearly,this however does not prove him right in any way or
>>>>>>>>> field.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I don't think it will generate clarifications on reality   itself,or add new
>>>>>>>>> insights;
>>>>>>>>> it is kinda developed to work as an upide down gearbox,not   shifting up, but
>>>>>>>>> in fact , shifting down further, in a halted car.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I wished you would not take this as critisism, because it   is'nt.You should
>>>>>>>>> explore these things, they are less boring than   Wittgenstein,and he was not
>>>>>>>>> all that clever also.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> the only part of critics i have is about your statement,   "competitor to the
>>>>>>>>> moq and amoq", There is no competion,connection,or game to win.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 2016-12-31 8:52 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko   <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Chris Langan, developer of the CTMU, which is a competitor  to  the MOQ and
>>>>>>>>>> AMOQ, does not understand the MOQ.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Citing http://ctmucommunity.org/wiki/Cognitive-Theoretic_Model_of_t
>>>>>>>>>> he_Universe
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, mind acts as a filter: that which does  not  conform to
>>>>>>>>>> mental categories is irrelevant to perception, and therefore  not real.
>>>>>>>>>> Langan here breaks with Kant, who posited a noumenal reality of
>>>>>>>>>> "things-in-themselves", independent of the phenomenal  reality  we perceive.
>>>>>>>>>> Discarding this "Kantian fallacy", Langan rejects noumena as   oxymoronic
>>>>>>>>>> "inconceivable concepts"[21] and holds that phenomenal   reality, as the only
>>>>>>>>>> reality we can know, is the only reality there is.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This means Langan's understanding of philosophy is at the   level of ZAMM.
>>>>>>>>>> It is not at the level of LILA. The phenomenal reality is   romantic quality.
>>>>>>>>>> Langan is oblivious to Dynamic Quality.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>> 
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