[MD] Rhetoric

Adrie Kintziger parser666 at gmail.com
Tue Jan 3 03:06:04 PST 2017 

@Tuukka.

Your behaviour is not inappropriate.
You tend to overshoot a it a bit ,it happens with everyone sometimes.....

2017-01-03 11:54 GMT+01:00 Jan Anders Andersson <jananderses at telia.com>:

> Tukka
>
> Celebrity, my friend, is nothing one can expect or demand,
>
> only by knowing the dynamic quality at the social level it may be deserved.
>
> Jan-Anders
>
>
>
> > 3 jan 2017 x kl. 11:08 skrev mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
> >
> > Horse,
> >
> > GET BACK IN HERE AND TELL ME CAN I CALL RON A "DICKWAD" OR NOT
> >
> > It is funny because it's true. Wait, what is?
> >
> > It's true that by behaving this way I am actually acknowledging that
> intellectual patterns depend on social patterns. They need social patterns
> to survive. So I try to verify that my behavior is in accordance with
> social norms.
> >
> > AND I'M STILL DOING IT WRONG
> >
> > But you don't have a category for the reason why it's wrong. I do, and
> you refuse it because I have made it a humiliating thing to accept. But
> your metaphysics doesn't explain this humiliating feeling. It says you
> should thank me. Why don't you want to do so?
> >
> > Why don't you want to thank me for dominating sociality with intellect
> while verifying that my behavior isn't socially inappropriate?
> >
> > Tuk
> >
> >
> >
> > Lainaus mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
> >
> >> Horse,
> >> Can we change the mailing list rules? I need to call Ron a "dickwad" as
> >> a part of a dialectical technique that seems rhetorical to him because
> >> he doesn't understand it.
> >>
> >> Tuk
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Lainaus Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
> >>
> >>> Ron,
> >>>
> >>> and why am I asking you this question that sounds so offensive?
> >>>
> >>> "What is so good about society that you would defend it against me?"
> >>>
> >>> I agree that sounds pretty selfish. But what's *wrong* about it
> >>> according to the MOQ? The MOQ doesn't state it's wrong to be selfish.
> >>> It states that intellect is superior to society.
> >>>
> >>> The point I am making here is a parody of what you believe in. It is
> >>> also a literally accurate implementation of your beliefs, if you
> >>> believe in Pirsig's MOQ, but it is so grotesque it is polite to call it
> >>> a parody.
> >>>
> >>> See, I was being polite to you. But I don't sound polite anymore
> >>> because I made a fuss of it.
> >>>
> >>> My current behavior lacks aesthetic appeal. You are capable of
> >>> intuitively perceiving this. But since you believe in Pirsig's MOQ you
> >>> are compelled to search for an explanation for your intuition from the
> >>> four boxes Pirsig gave to you. These are labeled "inorganic",
> >>> "biological", "social" and "intellectual".
> >>>
> >>> You just sought for an explanation for your intuition from the box
> >>> labeled "social". According to Pirsig's MOQ this was the wrong thing to
> >>> do. Intellect is superior to society so you can't find anything from
> >>> that box that you could use to point out that there's something wrong
> >>> about my behavior.
> >>>
> >>> From your viewpoint, your intuition of the repugnancy of my behavior is
> >>> Dynamic Quality! But if you keep experiencing it over and over again it
> >>> will cease to appear to be so Dynamic. So it should become static. But
> >>> if you believe in Pirsig's MOQ, this means your intuition should
> >>> eventually settle down in one of the four boxes provided by Robert
> >>> Pirsig.
> >>>
> >>> And I'm going to keep doing this until you:
> >>>
> >>> - Assign my repugnant behavior to a category provided by Pirsig and
> >>> explain the assignment
> >>>
> >>> or:
> >>>
> >>> - Assume that you need more categories (which I have provided)
> >>>
> >>> so, which one is it going to be?
> >>>
> >>> Tuk
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 02-Jan-17 14:06, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
> >>>> Ron,
> >>>>
> >>>> what is so good about society that you would defend it against me?
> >>>>
> >>>> Tuk
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:32, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
> >>>>> Ron,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If someone can devote time and effort for researching the
>  purported topic of this mailing list, it is regarded by someone   else as
> a bad thing. That someone else is put off by himself   having a job which
> precludes him from participating except in a   mediocre way. However,
> Phaedrus's aim in ZAMM was not to define  or  discover or understand
> mediocrity. It was to understand  excellence.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tuk
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:22, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
> >>>>>> Please consider what it does to a person not to have a credible
>  intellectual authority as a child. You are implying that I have   caused
> this burden to fall upon me. But I have not caused the   ineptitude of
> others.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> When you are sick to death of my narcissism, you are sick to
>  death of how insignificant it makes you feel. You think you are   entitled
> to feel better. I think I am also entitled to feel   better. But we don't,
> do we?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Is the psychiatrist who put me on pension making a useful
>  contribution to society? If not, why should I?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tuk
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 18:01, X Acto wrote:
> >>>>>>> Tuk,
> >>>>>>> I guess everyone is being nice to you or ignoring you because
>  you're a "man-child" with out a job or purpose who lives in his   parents
> basement mentally masturbating to what he thinks is  his  own genius. When
> in fact he is basing his entire argument  on a  logical fallacy.
> >>>>>>> You may be a genius when it comes to logical functions but when
>  it comes to critical thinking skills you can't reason yourself   out of a
> wet paper bag.
> >>>>>>> Things aren't quiet because you are right and no one can stand
>  up to your towering intellect . It's that you're so wrong no  one  has the
> time or energy to prove it to you and your immense  ego.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Since I have made a New Years resolution not to get involved in
>  discussions here that I can't devote my full attention to,  this  tirade
> is basically cathartic. I'm sick to death of your   narcissism.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Grow up, get a job and make yourself useful to society And have
>  a great new year in the process.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Ron
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:53 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko   <
> mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The brain is not a muscle, Dave. If you're wrong, that's it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Tuk
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 2:33, david wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Howdy, Adrie, MOQers all:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I don't know about Chris Langan's CTMU but Tuukka's criticism
>  is not correct.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The MOQ does not include anything like Kant's noumenal  reality
> or "things-in-themselves" and the MOQ holds that  phenomenal  reality is
> the only
> >>>>>>>>> reality we can know. The phenomenal reality is NOT romantic
>  quality. When Pirsig refers to Dynamic Quality as "direct   everyday
> experience," "the primary empirical reality," or   quotes William James
> referring to "the immediate flux of   reality," and "pure experience" he is
> talking about  phenomenal  reality as such.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tuukka's claims to have improved the MOQ are quite
>  preposterous. Obviously, there's no way to "improve" the MOQ   or create
> an alternative without understanding it first.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Buyer beware.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on
>  behalf of Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 6:43 AM
> >>>>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I think its good to read these materials.But things on wiki's
> are not
> >>>>>>>>> always what they seem.Some are very deceptive.
> >>>>>>>>> In fact, what this author is presenting here is actually
>  nothing more than a
> >>>>>>>>> collection of derivatives from Wittgensteins work on logic.It
>  is spiced and
> >>>>>>>>> salted with some previously known paradoxes in a new disguise.
> >>>>>>>>> The best way of putting it  ,in my opinion,is to regard it as
>  a new attempt
> >>>>>>>>> to launch the Tractatus-logico etc,....explained with the
>  terminology of a
> >>>>>>>>> computerprogrammer, or a very strong logical thinker.And a
>  very intelligent
> >>>>>>>>> thinker,...clearly,this however does not prove him right in any
> way or
> >>>>>>>>> field.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I don't think it will generate clarifications on reality
>  itself,or add new
> >>>>>>>>> insights;
> >>>>>>>>> it is kinda developed to work as an upide down gearbox,not
>  shifting up, but
> >>>>>>>>> in fact , shifting down further, in a halted car.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I wished you would not take this as critisism, because it
>  is'nt.You should
> >>>>>>>>> explore these things, they are less boring than
>  Wittgenstein,and he was not
> >>>>>>>>> all that clever also.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> the only part of critics i have is about your statement,
>  "competitor to the
> >>>>>>>>> moq and amoq", There is no competion,connection,or game to win.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 2016-12-31 8:52 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko   <
> mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Chris Langan, developer of the CTMU, which is a competitor  to
> the MOQ and
> >>>>>>>>>> AMOQ, does not understand the MOQ.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Citing http://ctmucommunity.org/wiki/
> Cognitive-Theoretic_Model_of_t
> >>>>>>>>>> he_Universe
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ***
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, mind acts as a filter: that which does  not
> conform to
> >>>>>>>>>> mental categories is irrelevant to perception, and therefore
> not real.
> >>>>>>>>>> Langan here breaks with Kant, who posited a noumenal reality of
> >>>>>>>>>> "things-in-themselves", independent of the phenomenal  reality
> we perceive.
> >>>>>>>>>> Discarding this "Kantian fallacy", Langan rejects noumena as
>  oxymoronic
> >>>>>>>>>> "inconceivable concepts"[21] and holds that phenomenal
>  reality, as the only
> >>>>>>>>>> reality we can know, is the only reality there is.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ***
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> This means Langan's understanding of philosophy is at the
>  level of ZAMM.
> >>>>>>>>>> It is not at the level of LILA. The phenomenal reality is
>  romantic quality.
> >>>>>>>>>> Langan is oblivious to Dynamic Quality.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Tuk
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ---
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