[MD] Rhetoric

mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net
Tue Jan 3 05:40:33 PST 2017


I'm an acolyte at this.

Tuk



Lainaus Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_exposure_theory
>
> ideal garden for you tuukka
>
> 2017-01-03 12:06 GMT+01:00 Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>:
>
>> @Tuukka.
>>
>> Your behaviour is not inappropriate.
>> You tend to overshoot a it a bit ,it happens with everyone sometimes.....
>>
>> 2017-01-03 11:54 GMT+01:00 Jan Anders Andersson <jananderses at telia.com>:
>>
>>> Tukka
>>>
>>> Celebrity, my friend, is nothing one can expect or demand,
>>>
>>> only by knowing the dynamic quality at the social level it may be
>>> deserved.
>>>
>>> Jan-Anders
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > 3 jan 2017 x kl. 11:08 skrev mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
>>> >
>>> > Horse,
>>> >
>>> > GET BACK IN HERE AND TELL ME CAN I CALL RON A "DICKWAD" OR NOT
>>> >
>>> > It is funny because it's true. Wait, what is?
>>> >
>>> > It's true that by behaving this way I am actually acknowledging that
>>> intellectual patterns depend on social patterns. They need social patterns
>>> to survive. So I try to verify that my behavior is in accordance with
>>> social norms.
>>> >
>>> > AND I'M STILL DOING IT WRONG
>>> >
>>> > But you don't have a category for the reason why it's wrong. I do, and
>>> you refuse it because I have made it a humiliating thing to accept. But
>>> your metaphysics doesn't explain this humiliating feeling. It says you
>>> should thank me. Why don't you want to do so?
>>> >
>>> > Why don't you want to thank me for dominating sociality with intellect
>>> while verifying that my behavior isn't socially inappropriate?
>>> >
>>> > Tuk
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Lainaus mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
>>> >
>>> >> Horse,
>>> >> Can we change the mailing list rules? I need to call Ron a "dickwad" as
>>> >> a part of a dialectical technique that seems rhetorical to him because
>>> >> he doesn't understand it.
>>> >>
>>> >> Tuk
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Lainaus Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Ron,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> and why am I asking you this question that sounds so offensive?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "What is so good about society that you would defend it against me?"
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I agree that sounds pretty selfish. But what's *wrong* about it
>>> >>> according to the MOQ? The MOQ doesn't state it's wrong to be selfish.
>>> >>> It states that intellect is superior to society.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> The point I am making here is a parody of what you believe in. It is
>>> >>> also a literally accurate implementation of your beliefs, if you
>>> >>> believe in Pirsig's MOQ, but it is so grotesque it is polite to call
>>> it
>>> >>> a parody.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> See, I was being polite to you. But I don't sound polite anymore
>>> >>> because I made a fuss of it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> My current behavior lacks aesthetic appeal. You are capable of
>>> >>> intuitively perceiving this. But since you believe in Pirsig's MOQ you
>>> >>> are compelled to search for an explanation for your intuition from the
>>> >>> four boxes Pirsig gave to you. These are labeled "inorganic",
>>> >>> "biological", "social" and "intellectual".
>>> >>>
>>> >>> You just sought for an explanation for your intuition from the box
>>> >>> labeled "social". According to Pirsig's MOQ this was the wrong thing
>>> to
>>> >>> do. Intellect is superior to society so you can't find anything from
>>> >>> that box that you could use to point out that there's something wrong
>>> >>> about my behavior.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> From your viewpoint, your intuition of the repugnancy of my behavior
>>> is
>>> >>> Dynamic Quality! But if you keep experiencing it over and over again
>>> it
>>> >>> will cease to appear to be so Dynamic. So it should become static. But
>>> >>> if you believe in Pirsig's MOQ, this means your intuition should
>>> >>> eventually settle down in one of the four boxes provided by Robert
>>> >>> Pirsig.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> And I'm going to keep doing this until you:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> - Assign my repugnant behavior to a category provided by Pirsig and
>>> >>> explain the assignment
>>> >>>
>>> >>> or:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> - Assume that you need more categories (which I have provided)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> so, which one is it going to be?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Tuk
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 02-Jan-17 14:06, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>> >>>> Ron,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> what is so good about society that you would defend it against me?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Tuk
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:32, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>> >>>>> Ron,
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> If someone can devote time and effort for researching the
>>>  purported topic of this mailing list, it is regarded by someone   else as
>>> a bad thing. That someone else is put off by himself   having a job which
>>> precludes him from participating except in a   mediocre way. However,
>>> Phaedrus's aim in ZAMM was not to define  or  discover or understand
>>> mediocrity. It was to understand  excellence.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Tuk
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:22, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>> >>>>>> Please consider what it does to a person not to have a credible
>>>  intellectual authority as a child. You are implying that I have   caused
>>> this burden to fall upon me. But I have not caused the   ineptitude of
>>> others.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> When you are sick to death of my narcissism, you are sick to
>>>  death of how insignificant it makes you feel. You think you are   entitled
>>> to feel better. I think I am also entitled to feel   better. But we don't,
>>> do we?
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Is the psychiatrist who put me on pension making a useful
>>>  contribution to society? If not, why should I?
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Tuk
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 18:01, X Acto wrote:
>>> >>>>>>> Tuk,
>>> >>>>>>> I guess everyone is being nice to you or ignoring you because
>>>  you're a "man-child" with out a job or purpose who lives in his   parents
>>> basement mentally masturbating to what he thinks is  his  own genius. When
>>> in fact he is basing his entire argument  on a  logical fallacy.
>>> >>>>>>> You may be a genius when it comes to logical functions but when
>>>  it comes to critical thinking skills you can't reason yourself   out of a
>>> wet paper bag.
>>> >>>>>>> Things aren't quiet because you are right and no one can stand
>>>  up to your towering intellect . It's that you're so wrong no  one  has the
>>> time or energy to prove it to you and your immense  ego.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Since I have made a New Years resolution not to get involved in
>>>  discussions here that I can't devote my full attention to,  this  tirade
>>> is basically cathartic. I'm sick to death of your   narcissism.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Grow up, get a job and make yourself useful to society And have
>>>  a great new year in the process.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> -Ron
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:53 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko   <
>>> mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> The brain is not a muscle, Dave. If you're wrong, that's it.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Tuk
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 2:33, david wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>> Howdy, Adrie, MOQers all:
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't know about Chris Langan's CTMU but Tuukka's criticism
>>>  is not correct.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> The MOQ does not include anything like Kant's noumenal
>>> reality  or "things-in-themselves" and the MOQ holds that  phenomenal
>>> reality is the only
>>> >>>>>>>>> reality we can know. The phenomenal reality is NOT romantic
>>>  quality. When Pirsig refers to Dynamic Quality as "direct   everyday
>>> experience," "the primary empirical reality," or   quotes William James
>>> referring to "the immediate flux of   reality," and "pure experience" he is
>>> talking about  phenomenal  reality as such.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Tuukka's claims to have improved the MOQ are quite
>>>  preposterous. Obviously, there's no way to "improve" the MOQ   or create
>>> an alternative without understanding it first.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Buyer beware.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>> >>>>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on
>>>  behalf of Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 6:43 AM
>>> >>>>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> I think its good to read these materials.But things on wiki's
>>> are not
>>> >>>>>>>>> always what they seem.Some are very deceptive.
>>> >>>>>>>>> In fact, what this author is presenting here is actually
>>>  nothing more than a
>>> >>>>>>>>> collection of derivatives from Wittgensteins work on logic.It
>>>  is spiced and
>>> >>>>>>>>> salted with some previously known paradoxes in a new disguise.
>>> >>>>>>>>> The best way of putting it  ,in my opinion,is to regard it as
>>>  a new attempt
>>> >>>>>>>>> to launch the Tractatus-logico etc,....explained with the
>>>  terminology of a
>>> >>>>>>>>> computerprogrammer, or a very strong logical thinker.And a
>>>  very intelligent
>>> >>>>>>>>> thinker,...clearly,this however does not prove him right in any
>>> way or
>>> >>>>>>>>> field.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't think it will generate clarifications on reality
>>>  itself,or add new
>>> >>>>>>>>> insights;
>>> >>>>>>>>> it is kinda developed to work as an upide down gearbox,not
>>>  shifting up, but
>>> >>>>>>>>> in fact , shifting down further, in a halted car.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> I wished you would not take this as critisism, because it
>>>  is'nt.You should
>>> >>>>>>>>> explore these things, they are less boring than
>>>  Wittgenstein,and he was not
>>> >>>>>>>>> all that clever also.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> the only part of critics i have is about your statement,
>>>  "competitor to the
>>> >>>>>>>>> moq and amoq", There is no competion,connection,or game to win.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> 2016-12-31 8:52 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko   <
>>> mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Chris Langan, developer of the CTMU, which is a competitor
>>> to  the MOQ and
>>> >>>>>>>>>> AMOQ, does not understand the MOQ.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Citing http://ctmucommunity.org/wiki/
>>> Cognitive-Theoretic_Model_of_t
>>> >>>>>>>>>> he_Universe
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> ***
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, mind acts as a filter: that which does
>>> not  conform to
>>> >>>>>>>>>> mental categories is irrelevant to perception, and therefore
>>> not real.
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Langan here breaks with Kant, who posited a noumenal reality of
>>> >>>>>>>>>> "things-in-themselves", independent of the phenomenal
>>> reality  we perceive.
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Discarding this "Kantian fallacy", Langan rejects noumena as
>>>  oxymoronic
>>> >>>>>>>>>> "inconceivable concepts"[21] and holds that phenomenal
>>>  reality, as the only
>>> >>>>>>>>>> reality we can know, is the only reality there is.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> ***
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> This means Langan's understanding of philosophy is at the
>>>  level of ZAMM.
>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is not at the level of LILA. The phenomenal reality is
>>>  romantic quality.
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Langan is oblivious to Dynamic Quality.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> ---
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