[MD] Rhetoric

Horse horse at darkstar.uk.net
Tue Jan 3 06:19:18 PST 2017 

No

On 03/01/2017 10:08, mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net wrote:
> Horse,
>
> GET BACK IN HERE AND TELL ME CAN I CALL RON A "DICKWAD" OR NOT
>
> It is funny because it's true. Wait, what is?
>
> It's true that by behaving this way I am actually acknowledging that 
> intellectual patterns depend on social patterns. They need social 
> patterns to survive. So I try to verify that my behavior is in 
> accordance with social norms.
>
> AND I'M STILL DOING IT WRONG
>
> But you don't have a category for the reason why it's wrong. I do, and 
> you refuse it because I have made it a humiliating thing to accept. 
> But your metaphysics doesn't explain this humiliating feeling. It says 
> you should thank me. Why don't you want to do so?
>
> Why don't you want to thank me for dominating sociality with intellect 
> while verifying that my behavior isn't socially inappropriate?
>
> Tuk
>
>
>
> Lainaus mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
>
>> Horse,
>> Can we change the mailing list rules? I need to call Ron a "dickwad" as
>> a part of a dialectical technique that seems rhetorical to him because
>> he doesn't understand it.
>>
>> Tuk
>>
>>
>>
>> Lainaus Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>
>>> Ron,
>>>
>>> and why am I asking you this question that sounds so offensive?
>>>
>>> "What is so good about society that you would defend it against me?"
>>>
>>> I agree that sounds pretty selfish. But what's *wrong* about it
>>> according to the MOQ? The MOQ doesn't state it's wrong to be selfish.
>>> It states that intellect is superior to society.
>>>
>>> The point I am making here is a parody of what you believe in. It is
>>> also a literally accurate implementation of your beliefs, if you
>>> believe in Pirsig's MOQ, but it is so grotesque it is polite to call it
>>> a parody.
>>>
>>> See, I was being polite to you. But I don't sound polite anymore
>>> because I made a fuss of it.
>>>
>>> My current behavior lacks aesthetic appeal. You are capable of
>>> intuitively perceiving this. But since you believe in Pirsig's MOQ you
>>> are compelled to search for an explanation for your intuition from the
>>> four boxes Pirsig gave to you. These are labeled "inorganic",
>>> "biological", "social" and "intellectual".
>>>
>>> You just sought for an explanation for your intuition from the box
>>> labeled "social". According to Pirsig's MOQ this was the wrong thing to
>>> do. Intellect is superior to society so you can't find anything from
>>> that box that you could use to point out that there's something wrong
>>> about my behavior.
>>>
>>> From your viewpoint, your intuition of the repugnancy of my behavior is
>>> Dynamic Quality! But if you keep experiencing it over and over again it
>>> will cease to appear to be so Dynamic. So it should become static. But
>>> if you believe in Pirsig's MOQ, this means your intuition should
>>> eventually settle down in one of the four boxes provided by Robert
>>> Pirsig.
>>>
>>> And I'm going to keep doing this until you:
>>>
>>> - Assign my repugnant behavior to a category provided by Pirsig and
>>> explain the assignment
>>>
>>> or:
>>>
>>> - Assume that you need more categories (which I have provided)
>>>
>>> so, which one is it going to be?
>>>
>>> Tuk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02-Jan-17 14:06, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>> Ron,
>>>>
>>>> what is so good about society that you would defend it against me?
>>>>
>>>> Tuk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:32, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone can devote time and effort for researching the   
>>>>> purported topic of this mailing list, it is regarded by someone   
>>>>> else as a bad thing. That someone else is put off by himself   
>>>>> having a job which precludes him from participating except in a   
>>>>> mediocre way. However, Phaedrus's aim in ZAMM was not to define  
>>>>> or  discover or understand mediocrity. It was to understand  
>>>>> excellence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:22, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>> Please consider what it does to a person not to have a credible  
>>>>>>  intellectual authority as a child. You are implying that I have 
>>>>>>   caused this burden to fall upon me. But I have not caused the 
>>>>>>  ineptitude of others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you are sick to death of my narcissism, you are sick to   
>>>>>> death of how insignificant it makes you feel. You think you are  
>>>>>>  entitled to feel better. I think I am also entitled to feel   
>>>>>> better. But we don't, do we?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is the psychiatrist who put me on pension making a useful   
>>>>>> contribution to society? If not, why should I?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 18:01, X Acto wrote:
>>>>>>> Tuk,
>>>>>>> I guess everyone is being nice to you or ignoring you because   
>>>>>>> you're a "man-child" with out a job or purpose who lives in his 
>>>>>>>   parents basement mentally masturbating to what he thinks is  
>>>>>>> his  own genius. When in fact he is basing his entire argument  
>>>>>>> on a logical fallacy.
>>>>>>> You may be a genius when it comes to logical functions but when 
>>>>>>>   it comes to critical thinking skills you can't reason 
>>>>>>> yourself   out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>>>> Things aren't quiet because you are right and no one can stand  
>>>>>>>  up to your towering intellect . It's that you're so wrong no  
>>>>>>> one  has the time or energy to prove it to you and your immense 
>>>>>>>  ego.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since I have made a New Years resolution not to get involved in 
>>>>>>>   discussions here that I can't devote my full attention to,  
>>>>>>> this  tirade is basically cathartic. I'm sick to death of your  
>>>>>>>  narcissism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Grow up, get a job and make yourself useful to society And have 
>>>>>>>   a great new year in the process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Ron
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:53 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko 
>>>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The brain is not a muscle, Dave. If you're wrong, that's it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 2:33, david wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Howdy, Adrie, MOQers all:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Chris Langan's CTMU but Tuukka's criticism 
>>>>>>>>>   is not correct.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The MOQ does not include anything like Kant's noumenal  
>>>>>>>>> reality  or "things-in-themselves" and the MOQ holds that  
>>>>>>>>> phenomenal  reality is the only
>>>>>>>>> reality we can know. The phenomenal reality is NOT romantic   
>>>>>>>>> quality. When Pirsig refers to Dynamic Quality as "direct   
>>>>>>>>> everyday experience," "the primary empirical reality," or   
>>>>>>>>> quotes William James referring to "the immediate flux of 
>>>>>>>>> reality," and "pure experience" he is talking about  
>>>>>>>>> phenomenal  reality as such.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tuukka's claims to have improved the MOQ are quite   
>>>>>>>>> preposterous. Obviously, there's no way to "improve" the MOQ  
>>>>>>>>>  or create an alternative without understanding it first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Buyer beware.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on 
>>>>>>>>>  behalf of Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 6:43 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think its good to read these materials.But things on wiki's 
>>>>>>>>> are not
>>>>>>>>> always what they seem.Some are very deceptive.
>>>>>>>>> In fact, what this author is presenting here is actually   
>>>>>>>>> nothing more than a
>>>>>>>>> collection of derivatives from Wittgensteins work on logic.It 
>>>>>>>>>   is spiced and
>>>>>>>>> salted with some previously known paradoxes in a new disguise.
>>>>>>>>> The best way of putting it  ,in my opinion,is to regard it as 
>>>>>>>>>   a new attempt
>>>>>>>>> to launch the Tractatus-logico etc,....explained with the   
>>>>>>>>> terminology of a
>>>>>>>>> computerprogrammer, or a very strong logical thinker.And a   
>>>>>>>>> very intelligent
>>>>>>>>> thinker,...clearly,this however does not prove him right in 
>>>>>>>>> any way or
>>>>>>>>> field.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think it will generate clarifications on reality   
>>>>>>>>> itself,or add new
>>>>>>>>> insights;
>>>>>>>>> it is kinda developed to work as an upide down gearbox,not   
>>>>>>>>> shifting up, but
>>>>>>>>> in fact , shifting down further, in a halted car.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wished you would not take this as critisism, because it   
>>>>>>>>> is'nt.You should
>>>>>>>>> explore these things, they are less boring than 
>>>>>>>>> Wittgenstein,and he was not
>>>>>>>>> all that clever also.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the only part of critics i have is about your statement,   
>>>>>>>>> "competitor to the
>>>>>>>>> moq and amoq", There is no competion,connection,or game to win.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2016-12-31 8:52 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko 
>>>>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chris Langan, developer of the CTMU, which is a competitor  
>>>>>>>>>> to  the MOQ and
>>>>>>>>>> AMOQ, does not understand the MOQ.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Citing 
>>>>>>>>>> http://ctmucommunity.org/wiki/Cognitive-Theoretic_Model_of_t
>>>>>>>>>> he_Universe
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, mind acts as a filter: that which does  
>>>>>>>>>> not  conform to
>>>>>>>>>> mental categories is irrelevant to perception, and therefore 
>>>>>>>>>>  not real.
>>>>>>>>>> Langan here breaks with Kant, who posited a noumenal reality of
>>>>>>>>>> "things-in-themselves", independent of the phenomenal  
>>>>>>>>>> reality  we perceive.
>>>>>>>>>> Discarding this "Kantian fallacy", Langan rejects noumena as 
>>>>>>>>>>   oxymoronic
>>>>>>>>>> "inconceivable concepts"[21] and holds that phenomenal   
>>>>>>>>>> reality, as the only
>>>>>>>>>> reality we can know, is the only reality there is.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This means Langan's understanding of philosophy is at the   
>>>>>>>>>> level of ZAMM.
>>>>>>>>>> It is not at the level of LILA. The phenomenal reality is   
>>>>>>>>>> romantic quality.
>>>>>>>>>> Langan is oblivious to Dynamic Quality.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>>
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