[MD] Rhetoric
Tuukka Virtaperko
mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net
Tue Jan 3 06:40:27 PST 2017
Horse,
okay, but I achieved the same effect by asking you permission to do so!
You see, I'm just copulating with ya.
Tuk
On 03-Jan-17 16:19, Horse wrote:
> No
>
> On 03/01/2017 10:08, mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net wrote:
>> Horse,
>>
>> GET BACK IN HERE AND TELL ME CAN I CALL RON A "DICKWAD" OR NOT
>>
>> It is funny because it's true. Wait, what is?
>>
>> It's true that by behaving this way I am actually acknowledging that
>> intellectual patterns depend on social patterns. They need social
>> patterns to survive. So I try to verify that my behavior is in
>> accordance with social norms.
>>
>> AND I'M STILL DOING IT WRONG
>>
>> But you don't have a category for the reason why it's wrong. I do,
>> and you refuse it because I have made it a humiliating thing to
>> accept. But your metaphysics doesn't explain this humiliating
>> feeling. It says you should thank me. Why don't you want to do so?
>>
>> Why don't you want to thank me for dominating sociality with
>> intellect while verifying that my behavior isn't socially inappropriate?
>>
>> Tuk
>>
>>
>>
>> Lainaus mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
>>
>>> Horse,
>>> Can we change the mailing list rules? I need to call Ron a "dickwad" as
>>> a part of a dialectical technique that seems rhetorical to him because
>>> he doesn't understand it.
>>>
>>> Tuk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Lainaus Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>
>>>> Ron,
>>>>
>>>> and why am I asking you this question that sounds so offensive?
>>>>
>>>> "What is so good about society that you would defend it against me?"
>>>>
>>>> I agree that sounds pretty selfish. But what's *wrong* about it
>>>> according to the MOQ? The MOQ doesn't state it's wrong to be selfish.
>>>> It states that intellect is superior to society.
>>>>
>>>> The point I am making here is a parody of what you believe in. It is
>>>> also a literally accurate implementation of your beliefs, if you
>>>> believe in Pirsig's MOQ, but it is so grotesque it is polite to
>>>> call it
>>>> a parody.
>>>>
>>>> See, I was being polite to you. But I don't sound polite anymore
>>>> because I made a fuss of it.
>>>>
>>>> My current behavior lacks aesthetic appeal. You are capable of
>>>> intuitively perceiving this. But since you believe in Pirsig's MOQ you
>>>> are compelled to search for an explanation for your intuition from the
>>>> four boxes Pirsig gave to you. These are labeled "inorganic",
>>>> "biological", "social" and "intellectual".
>>>>
>>>> You just sought for an explanation for your intuition from the box
>>>> labeled "social". According to Pirsig's MOQ this was the wrong
>>>> thing to
>>>> do. Intellect is superior to society so you can't find anything from
>>>> that box that you could use to point out that there's something wrong
>>>> about my behavior.
>>>>
>>>> From your viewpoint, your intuition of the repugnancy of my
>>>> behavior is
>>>> Dynamic Quality! But if you keep experiencing it over and over
>>>> again it
>>>> will cease to appear to be so Dynamic. So it should become static. But
>>>> if you believe in Pirsig's MOQ, this means your intuition should
>>>> eventually settle down in one of the four boxes provided by Robert
>>>> Pirsig.
>>>>
>>>> And I'm going to keep doing this until you:
>>>>
>>>> - Assign my repugnant behavior to a category provided by Pirsig and
>>>> explain the assignment
>>>>
>>>> or:
>>>>
>>>> - Assume that you need more categories (which I have provided)
>>>>
>>>> so, which one is it going to be?
>>>>
>>>> Tuk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 02-Jan-17 14:06, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>
>>>>> what is so good about society that you would defend it against me?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:32, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If someone can devote time and effort for researching the
>>>>>> purported topic of this mailing list, it is regarded by someone
>>>>>> else as a bad thing. That someone else is put off by himself
>>>>>> having a job which precludes him from participating except in a
>>>>>> mediocre way. However, Phaedrus's aim in ZAMM was not to define
>>>>>> or discover or understand mediocrity. It was to understand
>>>>>> excellence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:22, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>>> Please consider what it does to a person not to have a credible
>>>>>>> intellectual authority as a child. You are implying that I have
>>>>>>> caused this burden to fall upon me. But I have not caused the
>>>>>>> ineptitude of others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When you are sick to death of my narcissism, you are sick to
>>>>>>> death of how insignificant it makes you feel. You think you are
>>>>>>> entitled to feel better. I think I am also entitled to feel
>>>>>>> better. But we don't, do we?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is the psychiatrist who put me on pension making a useful
>>>>>>> contribution to society? If not, why should I?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 18:01, X Acto wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tuk,
>>>>>>>> I guess everyone is being nice to you or ignoring you because
>>>>>>>> you're a "man-child" with out a job or purpose who lives in his
>>>>>>>> parents basement mentally masturbating to what he thinks is
>>>>>>>> his own genius. When in fact he is basing his entire argument
>>>>>>>> on a logical fallacy.
>>>>>>>> You may be a genius when it comes to logical functions but when
>>>>>>>> it comes to critical thinking skills you can't reason
>>>>>>>> yourself out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>>>>> Things aren't quiet because you are right and no one can stand
>>>>>>>> up to your towering intellect . It's that you're so wrong no
>>>>>>>> one has the time or energy to prove it to you and your immense
>>>>>>>> ego.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since I have made a New Years resolution not to get involved in
>>>>>>>> discussions here that I can't devote my full attention to,
>>>>>>>> this tirade is basically cathartic. I'm sick to death of your
>>>>>>>> narcissism.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Grow up, get a job and make yourself useful to society And have
>>>>>>>> a great new year in the process.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Ron
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:53 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko
>>>>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The brain is not a muscle, Dave. If you're wrong, that's it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 2:33, david wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Howdy, Adrie, MOQers all:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Chris Langan's CTMU but Tuukka's criticism
>>>>>>>>>> is not correct.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The MOQ does not include anything like Kant's noumenal
>>>>>>>>>> reality or "things-in-themselves" and the MOQ holds that
>>>>>>>>>> phenomenal reality is the only
>>>>>>>>>> reality we can know. The phenomenal reality is NOT romantic
>>>>>>>>>> quality. When Pirsig refers to Dynamic Quality as "direct
>>>>>>>>>> everyday experience," "the primary empirical reality," or
>>>>>>>>>> quotes William James referring to "the immediate flux of
>>>>>>>>>> reality," and "pure experience" he is talking about
>>>>>>>>>> phenomenal reality as such.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tuukka's claims to have improved the MOQ are quite
>>>>>>>>>> preposterous. Obviously, there's no way to "improve" the MOQ
>>>>>>>>>> or create an alternative without understanding it first.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Buyer beware.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on
>>>>>>>>>> behalf of Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 6:43 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think its good to read these materials.But things on wiki's
>>>>>>>>>> are not
>>>>>>>>>> always what they seem.Some are very deceptive.
>>>>>>>>>> In fact, what this author is presenting here is actually
>>>>>>>>>> nothing more than a
>>>>>>>>>> collection of derivatives from Wittgensteins work on logic.It
>>>>>>>>>> is spiced and
>>>>>>>>>> salted with some previously known paradoxes in a new disguise.
>>>>>>>>>> The best way of putting it ,in my opinion,is to regard it as
>>>>>>>>>> a new attempt
>>>>>>>>>> to launch the Tractatus-logico etc,....explained with the
>>>>>>>>>> terminology of a
>>>>>>>>>> computerprogrammer, or a very strong logical thinker.And a
>>>>>>>>>> very intelligent
>>>>>>>>>> thinker,...clearly,this however does not prove him right in
>>>>>>>>>> any way or
>>>>>>>>>> field.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think it will generate clarifications on reality
>>>>>>>>>> itself,or add new
>>>>>>>>>> insights;
>>>>>>>>>> it is kinda developed to work as an upide down gearbox,not
>>>>>>>>>> shifting up, but
>>>>>>>>>> in fact , shifting down further, in a halted car.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wished you would not take this as critisism, because it
>>>>>>>>>> is'nt.You should
>>>>>>>>>> explore these things, they are less boring than
>>>>>>>>>> Wittgenstein,and he was not
>>>>>>>>>> all that clever also.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the only part of critics i have is about your statement,
>>>>>>>>>> "competitor to the
>>>>>>>>>> moq and amoq", There is no competion,connection,or game to win.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2016-12-31 8:52 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko
>>>>>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Langan, developer of the CTMU, which is a competitor
>>>>>>>>>>> to the MOQ and
>>>>>>>>>>> AMOQ, does not understand the MOQ.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Citing
>>>>>>>>>>> http://ctmucommunity.org/wiki/Cognitive-Theoretic_Model_of_t
>>>>>>>>>>> he_Universe
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, mind acts as a filter: that which does
>>>>>>>>>>> not conform to
>>>>>>>>>>> mental categories is irrelevant to perception, and therefore
>>>>>>>>>>> not real.
>>>>>>>>>>> Langan here breaks with Kant, who posited a noumenal reality of
>>>>>>>>>>> "things-in-themselves", independent of the phenomenal
>>>>>>>>>>> reality we perceive.
>>>>>>>>>>> Discarding this "Kantian fallacy", Langan rejects noumena as
>>>>>>>>>>> oxymoronic
>>>>>>>>>>> "inconceivable concepts"[21] and holds that phenomenal
>>>>>>>>>>> reality, as the only
>>>>>>>>>>> reality we can know, is the only reality there is.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This means Langan's understanding of philosophy is at the
>>>>>>>>>>> level of ZAMM.
>>>>>>>>>>> It is not at the level of LILA. The phenomenal reality is
>>>>>>>>>>> romantic quality.
>>>>>>>>>>> Langan is oblivious to Dynamic Quality.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>>>
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