[MD] The iMOQ vs. the MOQ

Sun May 24 02:24:33 PDT 2020

Joshua!

Thank you for expanding on your thoughts about the MOQ and the iMOQ.

Now, to put you 'in the picture', I think English people might just be the most sarcastic people on this
planet so when someone writes to me and states something like:

"I still remember buying your MOQ textbook [in July 2011] and downloading it like a kid on Christmas;
 printing it off, and putting it under my pillow".

...I automatically think they're doing a send-up!  The only literature I have ever put under my pillow
(well, at least since my twenties) are certain images a prudish girlfriend or two have not been
impressed in finding. (A good thing one of my passions/qualifications is in fine art which just scrapes a
very dodgy excuse!)

More seriously, both my primary Ph.D supervisor (Prof. Stephen Clark) AND, to his credit, Robert
Pirsig was to encourage me to break down, criticise, and, if possible manipulate & improve the concepts
 in the MOQ found in LILA as far as possible.  So though it's not immediately obvious, the MOQ found
in the 2011 PDF version of my Ph.D is a slightly more refined & formal version of the MOQ that Pirsig
 published in 1991.  (The appendix of the PDF version shows some of the sometimes inane three-way
conversations we had; it didn't help me that those two were quite formidable professional
philosophers to deal with on their own.  For instance, if I asked Clark what tradition he was from...
he'd say something like "Well, I'm a mystic on Monday, a Jesuit on Tuesday, a logical positivist on
Wednesday, a Zen Buddhist on Thursday, a Kantian on Friday, an idealist on Saturday and simply
a God fearing Christian on Sunday".  I remember thinking at the time, "Thanks a lot, Professor Clark
 for straightening that issue out then..".).

Anyway, if the iMOQ improves on the MOQ found in the 'Pirsig Ph.D' then so be it.  The MOQ is not a
list of rules set in stone like the TEN COMMANDMENTS!  Clark & Pirsig taught me that what is, above
all critical, is not get attached to any set of ideas but to provide the best way of looking at this world
metaphysically; keeping in mind what modern science (which, of course, is provisional too!) indicates.

To quote Pirsig:  "The pencil is mightier than the pen"..

So throw in some ideas & theories from the iMOQ and we'll see how we go.  They're a few Wilber fans
 here on this discussion group so hopefully they can contribute too.

Peace & Love,

Ant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOwv16POCcY

[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.YJ75fWjt_TZ1LgMq1cuZWwHgFo&pid=Api]<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOwv16POCcY>
My Song - Labi Siffre<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOwv16POCcY>
1972
www.youtube.com

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Joshua Lesser imoq.lesszen at gmail.com<mailto:moq_discuss%40lists.moqtalk.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMD%5D%20Moq_Discuss%20Digest%2C%20Vol%20148%2C%20Issue%2021&In-Reply-To=%3CCAHQS9C73fHu7W-Oe4oapMmOXy4cLx9mzriTRs%2B-51xVUmceZiw%40mail.gmail.com%3E>

Fri May 22 22:55:25 PDT 2020

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Dear Dr. McWatt and friends,

Thank you for taking the time to respond, Dr. McWatt! I confess to being a
little star struck!! I still remember buying your MOQ textbook and
downloading it like a kid on Christmas; printing it off, and putting it
under my pillow.  As you are, to my knowledge, the only person on earth to
hold a terminal degree in the field to which i aspire to be a member, I'm
humbled and aghast to think I may have offended you. Please accept my
sincere apology if I said something improper. I wonder if my sloppily
worded "Is this the end" question, which was in reference to the lack of
activity of our discussion group, may have done it. Hey, my bad. That
comment was motivated by nothing more than a love of MOQ and discussing
life, the universe, and everything through it's framework. It
certainly wasn't intended as a claim that MOQ is dead and only my book can
save it, as Im afraid it may have come off.. idk. Quality/MOQ was around
long before me, and will go on long after I'm dead whether I publish or
not. Duh.

Regardless, if the above mentioned is the cause of your laughter or
something else, I remind you the purpose of my message was simply a request
to submit my ideas and life's work for your criticism. *Note - it was not a
request for mockery*  But, hey, as the good Socrates said, "whether rich or
poor, when sick, to a Dr. you must go!". In other words, I'll take what i
can get from the only Dr. of Quality in town!

The reason I write, dear friends of Quality, is bc when Quality/MOQ impacts
your life the way it has mine, you want to share it. It's possible that the
only purpose of my life story is to serve as a bad example. But I can
promise the story won't bore you. Hell, Ill even give you a money back
guarantee!

& Dr. Mcwatt, I stopped caring whether people are laughing at me or with me
long ago, just so long as I can make them smile. One Love, Brother. Shalom
to your face.

I will note, however, that I've wanted to contribute to this forum for,
basically, decades, except there always seemed to be some fight going on I
didn't want to get in the middle of keeping me from participation. . For
me, success is defined not by defeating an enemy, but by turning an enemy
into a friend. & I wasnt capable of engaging like that until very recently.
So I've kept my peace. Frankly, if I wasn't at peace, i wouldnt allow myself
to respond at this time. Bc i think people react to your fundamental
Quality (or energy) not what you do or say. If I can't say something from a
perspective of edification, i try not to say it. I hope my words here will
be received in the spirit in which they are given. Nothing but Love. (Is
Quality what you like or is it better to say its really what you LOVE) Let
it be known I formerly had a philosophy of Quality but now i have a
Philosophy of Love. That's a hill I'll die on, proudly.

It is my hope and only motive for writing that MOQ increases in popularity,
influence, and most especially debate. If I had 3 wishes, one of them damn
for sure would be for a vibrant community that debates the fine points of
Quality into infinity and beyond! Ive savored the discussions on this forum
and mourn each day my inbox is empty. Has the forum moved somewhere to
which I'm ignorant? Or has the dialogue ceased?

I started a business in Fort Wayne, Indiana called IQ (Integrated Quality)
Services LLC in 2009 which I closed in 2015 to move to Boulder, CO to work
and study (Integral Psychology) at Naropa University. The purpose of the
business was to test postulates of MOQ in the real world. The good news is
we were wildly successful & one thing I learned about Quality leadership
is that sometimes the only way to unite labor is to motivate them against
management. So if the only way to re-ignite debate on this forum is to get
everyone criticizing iMOQ im happy to play the fool. So listen up chumps
(jk jk, my tongue is firmly in my cheeck lol) I'm taking all comers. & Dr.
McWatt, youre the biggest guy in the room.. soo come at me bro. (in the
most apatheia sense possible)

Let's start with something we have in common. The belief that MOQ is better
at explaining reality than any other framework known to humanity is
something on which I hope we can agree. As such, I propose that the
Integral Model, as presented by Ken Wilber, can be re-interpreted through
the MOQ in a way that clarifies and enhances both theories. Quality is
fundamental. I take MOQ as the starting point as a tool for understanding
Integral Theory. So it's misleading to say MOQ has been integrated when the
proper order is more like the Integral Model has been Qualified. Um. I
guess. Anyway, here's my point and opening ante: if such is true, iMOQ has
a higher Quality than MOQ alone in explanatory power. Yikes! What a bold
statement bordering on megalomaniacal delusions of grandeur! Who can help
me see the light? I'm warning you tho.. im extremely dense and possibly not
worth your time. Probably.

LOL, indeed!

Love,
Josh

MOQ is DEAD - LONG LIVE MOQ!

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On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 5:13 PM <moq_discuss-request at lists.moqtalk.org<http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org>>
wrote:

> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: The future of MOQ? (Ant McWatt)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 21:13:21 +0000
> From: Ant McWatt <antmcwatt at hotmail.co.uk<http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org>>
> To: "moq_discuss at moqtalk.org<http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org>" <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org<http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org>>
> Subject: Re: [MD] The future of MOQ?
>
> LOL!
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hello dear qualified friends,
>
> Question. What is the future of Quality. Is this the end? Where do we go
> from here?
>
> As for me, after 25 years of fear and trembling, I am hoping to publish
> 'Zen and the Art of Dying' (an inquiry into Faith) this year. The book is a
> vehicle for many ideas, mostly why I believe the Integral model (Ken
> Wilber) and MOQ are pointing to the same truth. An ?integrated? MOQ
> completes the framework Pirsig presented; keeping Quality at the center. I
> refer to it as iMOQ. And I?d love to present the ideas here for criticism
> before publication.
>
> Hoping you are up for the discussion; that is if you?re down for helping
> me maintain my goodness.
>
> Regards,
>
> Josh
> ________________________________
> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org<http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org>> on behalf of
> Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com<http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org>>
> Sent: 19 May 2020 20:09
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org<http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org> <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org<http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org>>
> Subject: Re: [MD] Best Wishes to All of My Old Friends
>
> Yes , indeed , my brother owns the place, and all the machines in it,we can
> weld,grind, turn, saw , whatever-, we even have an
> electrical oven to bake some parts, and a sandblaster. I'm still on the
> scouting for a nice CB 77 or a Yamaha rd 350 lc blue/white,only a matter of
> time
> that i will have one,and restore it to a showroomcondition.
> As an Englishman, i think you have a slight idea about the prices eh?,to
> give you an idea. A new electronic ignition and condensers,along with the
> infrared pick-up elements for the TX 500 Yam,=200 euro,
> a simple camchain joint link, 1 (one)= 70 euro,..a camchain without the
> joint, 184 euro, a gasket set covering all carters/cranck/cases, the heads
> and the oilchannels =210 euro;  a kit to get a refit for the oilfilter to
> make it adapt to modern ones
> =75 euro,(the old oilfilters are absent, the new have another threading) ,
> anyway these are the cheap parts. A crankshaft = 2000 euro, a camshaft 800
> but you need two. We payed 500 euro for the valves and seats only.
>
> And we have others issue's as well.
> Modern fuel contains alcohol and lacks lead. The old bikes need lead and
> pure fuel.Almost impossible to get.
> It is also very difficult to import a motor and have it approved
> legally,and it is expensive.
> If a bike has been in a shed for say 40 years,all document for it become
> valueless.
> But we like to get our nose in a jerrycan.
>
> Adrie
>
>
> Op di 19 mei 2020 om 12:47 schreef Ant McWatt <antmcwatt at hotmail.co.uk<http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org>>:
>
> > Sounds a very good way to go, Adrie, in these 'times of trouble' with the
> > motorcycles/bikes and outboard boat engines.   Bet your brother and your
> > good self are glad that you have that man-cave to work in!  It's also
> nice
> > to hear in this 'age of consumerism' that you are both doing good deals
> on
> > these (sensibly engine-sized) motorbikes/cycles.  I know where I'm going
> to
> > order my next 'bike' from!!!
> >
> > Yours, thinking ahead (slightly Dynamically),
> >
> > Ant

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